God's law or private law?

[Leonardo17]

I think they should begin hating themselves a little bit. There has to be some sort of self-critisism inside every man and woman in this world. (what are you even talking about?)

This seems like good advice to me. There's not enough self-hate in the world. 

I can't speak about Iran. To me, though, people often seem to confuse self-generated private law with God's law. They assume that because they feel really strongly about it, that God must be supporting it. This is what comes of having people say "I don't have a religion; I have a personal relationship with Jesus." 

Since America is built, supposedly, on self-reliance and individual liberty, the American brands of religion often support these independent qualities. More traditional religions, including Islam I suppose, say far more about the responsibilities one has to the group. The written law still has some sway with old-fashioned religions -- to be a good member of that religion, one might have to actually control his own desires. Americans hate the term obedience, and not pursuing one's desire is seen as weakness. 

By ignoring the difficult demands that traditional religion put on people, and assuming that what I really want is what God must want too, we lose a key method of doing self-criticism.

Recently on another thread we were talking about a certain TV series. It was explained to me that, according to the show, if something is really really important to you, you no longer have to follow the moral norms of your society to get or protect that thing. In other words, even for atheists the voice of the community is very easy to ignore -- if you personally decide that morality is not relevant to you, you can forget it. 

We need far more self-criticism, and more attention to ethical examples that demonstrate going against one's own desires.

I agree with that. But I would just add that there is no stopping individual freedoms and liberties anymore. This is basic sociology. In the 70’s you could maybe try to slow it down a little. Yet industrial nations are now putting everything on the back of the individual. When you are 18 you have to stand on your two feet and become self-reliant. It’s the same in Abu-Dhabi, it’s the same in India.

   But I think, even in the past. What we call religion had to be a matter of individual choice. Otherwise why would monotheistic prophets always be greatly challenged by the already existing order. I think that those rulers did not like the sense of personal choice and autonomy that were brought by these new religions. But that my point of view.  

[Leonardo17]

they should begin hating themselves a little bit. There has to be some sort of self-critisism inside every man and woman in this world. (what are you even talking about?)

Years ago I read a long philosophical novel by Iris Murdoch -- a splendid writer who deserves to be much better known.

Near the end of the book, after many events and much discussion, one of the characters says, "We should live quietly and learn to hate ourselves." (This was spoken by a character, not by Murdoch herself, so it isn't necessarily the view of the author. Nonetheless the character was presented as a reasonable person, which meant that her words were not to be taken as insane.)

Naturally this seemed very strange to me. As a young American I had been raised to think that loving yourself was always best, that the schools are there largely to foster "self-esteem," and the best way to go through life is to forgive yourself as quickly and thoroughly as possible. For example, "Of course I shot all those kids at the school, but I'm not really a bad guy." 

It's taken me a long time to ponder the wisdom of giving up self-love. There are Buddhist approaches, but also (as always) Western sources which parallel the Eastern wisdom.

I am a reader of someone called Louise Hay. I believe in the importance of Self-love and Self-worth. (It’s a psychological book but you can check it out if you like). So when I say “Why wouldn’t he hate himself a little?” what I mean is that (as it is described in the Quran) this is a state (the pharaoh State of Mind) in which the Ego lost all its sense of self-criticism. And Scholars describe this as the lowest state of the Human Ego. The English Term is Hubris. (It come from the Greek language. You may have heard that Ancient Spartans had not one but two kings so that one King would always be present to limit the Hubris of the other.)

And unfortunately what I am saying is nonsense. Because as Thomas Jefferson said “The only thing that stops power is power”. But while I am saying that I have absolutely no doubt that they will all end like Muhamad Kaddafi or like Adolf Hitler or like Benito Mussolini. That’s because they don’t have this self-criticism that normal people have. They don’t have it anymore.  

[Leonardo17]

This seems like good advice to me. There's not enough self-hate in the world. 

I can't speak about Iran. To me, though, people often seem to confuse self-generated private law with God's law. They assume that because they feel really strongly about it, that God must be supporting it. This is what comes of having people say "I don't have a religion; I have a personal relationship with Jesus." 

Since America is built, supposedly, on self-reliance and individual liberty, the American brands of religion often support these independent qualities. More traditional religions, including Islam I suppose, say far more about the responsibilities one has to the group. The written law still has some sway with old-fashioned religions -- to be a good member of that religion, one might have to actually control his own desires. Americans hate the term obedience, and not pursuing one's desire is seen as weakness. 

By ignoring the difficult demands that traditional religion put on people, and assuming that what I really want is what God must want too, we lose a key method of doing self-criticism.

Recently on another thread we were talking about a certain TV series. It was explained to me that, according to the show, if something is really really important to you, you no longer have to follow the moral norms of your society to get or protect that thing. In other words, even for atheists the voice of the community is very easy to ignore -- if you personally decide that morality is not relevant to you, you can forget it. 

We need far more self-criticism, and more attention to ethical examples that demonstrate going against one's own desires.

Iran is ruled by the new doctrine called "Velayat-e faqih" or in Arabic ولاية الفقيه, literally translated to "state of the jurisprudence (my personal translation)":

https://institute.global/policy/what-velayat-e-faqih

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_s...ic_of_Iran

It's a very new law formulated in the 70s, and it's pure dictatorship: it says that all power is in the hands of a crooked old fart called the "Faqih" (hence the name), so 1 man holds all power in the state, the government believes he is "heavenly divine", the current "Faqih" is this drauger:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Khamenei

Doesn't this ring a bell? North Korea, Saudi Arabia are all carbon copies, all are disgusting states with terrible human rights violations.

The funny thing is that Uncle sam loves to take allies from these states and turn a blind eye to their medieval scam systems called governments; while in reality they are nothing but cutthroat gangsters.

Iran is using Islam just like Saudi Arabia used it before it, so the OP should direct his criticism to the master manipulator instead of the small pawns.

Don't forget that uncle Sam and aunt Hillary loved to sell weapons to the Shiite Imam so he kill the Sunni of Iraq.

I am a bit reserved on the criticism of Arab monarchies and even some dictatorships. Egypt for instance is not faring that bad after all. In Jordan the elite are very rich and the people are poor and ignorant but again, it’s a peaceful nation who is not doing any harm to anyone. Morocco is I country I would like to live in (Also Tunisia) if I have a steady source of income. These are countries that are still working. Like Pakistan if you like. It’s not really heaven, but it’s not really hell either. And most of all they are peaceful nations. Saudi Arabia is more problematic. They are promoting their Salafist version of Islam which I also don’t like. Their money, and Pakistani money is said to flow to the Taliban and even to Al-Qaida. So these two have some problems. India (even with Modi) is still a better place than both these countries.
 
   But the difference is here: Saudis were a nation without flowing water in Ottoman times. That’s who they are in reality. They are desert Bedouins and their king is the decadence of the Sheikh’s of these Bedouins. So it’s normal for them to be very traditional people (And yet even they are gradually easing the social exclusion of their women). So I think they won’t be resilient to change as time passes.
 
   The Iranian regime is totally crazy at this point. They don’t know what they are doing, they don’t know what they are saying, It’s not even possible for my generation (let alone millennials) to approve of anything that they are doing. So it has become a north-Korea like or Putin-Like country. They only thing I can say is: “Ok, you tried, you tried 40 years, So don’t be a modern Ramses, Just go away”. I am not saying this: The Iranians both in Iran and everywhere in the world are saying this. So if God is still the creator of all these people… I mean….  

[Leonardo17]

Always to the extreme when you can bash Americans.  

What good does self-hate do in your esteemed opinion? 

You read a book.  The author said a thing.  You internalized it.  Imagine that.  Is there no middle ground?  Like self governance that is between hating yourself and loving yourself.

Americans deserve to be bashed.
Look, you have freedom. You can make change. You can elect good people, but you always elect cutthroat bastards like Trump and Biden, you pay for your beasts in the military to keep the wheel of death called "Yankee foreign policy" turning; your money gave your army weapons to pulverise my land, befriend fucking filthy warlords like the Sauds !

So....really how many did you kill in Iraq?
No seriously, search your basement. Maybe the WMDs are hidden there..let's ask your ex agent Saddam.
Damn. You snuffed him.

I also think that George W. Bush would admit that the move against Iraq and Afghanistan was not entirely well calculated.

[Leonardo17]

Does 'private law' go with 'major malfunction', 'general disarray' and 'corporal punishment'?

All of the above and being a liar above everything (Not being honest to oneself or even God I would say)

[Leonardo17]

Americans deserve to be bashed.

I agree. It's really astonishing that even with world-wide Internet and news reporting that's supposedly uncensored, Americans can be so completely unaware of the evil their government has done. 

I don't expect that will change any time soon. But there are signs of a new, multi-polar world being put together, where not everyone will bow to the petrodollar. So perhaps we can be a little optimistic. I hope so.

The world is multi polar. Even China is a pole. We saw it during the pandemic. No one can do anything without all the others. This trend is slowing down now with a certain return to nationalism. But it will always be there from now on.

20 years ago no one cared about India. Today you see how they have become so important in the “cheap Russian oil” issue, or in the climate change issue for instance. Or think of Brasil. People here are celebrating because Bolsonaro is gone . 20 years ago, no one cared about Brasil. It’s all interconnected now

[brewer]

Does 'private law' go with 'major malfunction', 'general disarray' and 'corporal punishment'?

All of the above and being a liar above everything (Not being honest to oneself or even God I would say)

Who/whom is the liar?

(don't even think about pointing at me)

[arewethereyet]

While I had been pretty okay with Leo's posts, I am over the hatred for America and Americans. Bel and Winter were quite enough. The forum is over quota.

btw - to the American haters...Bel is American.

[The Grand Nudger]

I remember twenty years ago. People cared very much about both india and brazil. Those two specifically...even? I suppose some people didn't, or even made it part of their identity to performatively -not- care. That continues. Won't find many from that demo here on these boards, though.

I found this bit interesting;

But I think, even in the past. What we call religion had to be a matter of individual choice. Otherwise why would monotheistic prophets always be greatly challenged by the already existing order. I think that those rulers did not like the sense of personal choice and autonomy that were brought by these new religions. But that my point of view.

It seems to me that "monotheistic prophets" being greatly challenged by rulers or the pre-existing status quo is a good demonstration that religion has never been a matter of individual choice. We often note that the religion a person holds is mostly determined by the religion of their parents. We could extend that observation. Many of the parents in lands conquered by abrahamist warlords would be some other religion today if not for that fact of history. Pockets of internal resistence alongside continuous tradition just outside of political borders demonstrates that..for better and for worse, which of two groups of men did more killing than the other..on a single day, have determined the religions of untold millions of people who might have never thought of making any individual choice..or, indeed..who think of making one every day and are suppressed by the heirs to those "monotheistic prophets" authority.

Ultimately, I think you're right. That you have to be right, even - with the proper understanding of religion. We all privately know whether or not we agree or disagree with a given religious assertion - and, truth be told, the accuracy of their (allegedly)supporting superstitions is irrelevant to that. Gods laws, mans laws, they can both be shit...apparently.

[Leonardo17]

All of the above and being a liar above everything (Not being honest to oneself or even God I would say)

Who/whom is the liar?

(don't even think about pointing at me)

This is such a nice reminder indeed. So Thank you for that. 
 
I’ll be working on this in coming days