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(May 13, 2023 at 6:19 am)Belacqua Wrote: Oh, man, this is going to be fun.
I finally got signed up, by having the verification number sent to my wife's smartphone.
The first question I asked was:
How can I live like a Decadent author, such as J.K. Huysmans?
As Neo pointed out, the answers are pretty verbose, so I will put it after the fold:
ChatGPT
Living like a Decadent author such as J.K. Huysmans involves immersing yourself in a lifestyle characterized by a pursuit of luxury, art, sensuality, and individualism. While it's important to remember that everyone's interpretation of a Decadent lifestyle may differ, here are some general suggestions to help you embrace elements of that lifestyle:
Embrace Aestheticism: Decadent authors celebrated beauty and aesthetics. Surround yourself with visually stimulating and luxurious objects. Pay attention to the design and atmosphere of your living space, incorporating rich colors, textures, and artwork that resonate with your personal taste.
Cultivate Intellectual Pursuits: Engage in intellectual pursuits that stimulate your imagination and deepen your knowledge. Read extensively, explore diverse art forms, and delve into philosophical and literary works that align with the Decadent movement.
Indulge in Fine Arts: Appreciate and immerse yourself in various art forms. Attend theater performances, operas, art exhibitions, and concerts. Embrace music, painting, sculpture, and literature as sources of inspiration and pleasure.
Develop an Eccentric Style: Experiment with your personal style to reflect your individuality and decadent spirit. Embrace unique fashion choices, combining vintage pieces with contemporary elements. Pay attention to details such as accessories, jewelry, and fragrances that evoke a sense of opulence and mystery.
Seek Sensual Pleasures: Explore the sensual side of life. Indulge in gourmet food, fine wines, and delicacies. Engage in sensory experiences, such as aromatherapy, luxurious baths, and massages. Surround yourself with scents, sounds, and textures that bring you pleasure.
Create a Personal Salon: Establish a space in your home dedicated to intellectual and artistic gatherings. Host salons where like-minded individuals can discuss literature, art, and philosophy. Encourage stimulating conversations and debate while fostering an atmosphere of intellectual freedom.
Challenge Social Norms: Decadent authors often challenged societal conventions. Embrace non-conformity and explore alternative lifestyles and ideas. Question established norms and experiment with new ways of thinking and living.
Explore the Occult and Esoteric: Decadent authors were often fascinated by the mystical and the esoteric. Delve into occult literature, symbolism, and practices such as tarot readings, astrology, or meditation. Embrace the mystery and explore the depths of your own consciousness.
Remember, living like a Decadent author is a personal choice, and you should adapt these suggestions to suit your own preferences and circumstances. Embrace the aspects that resonate with you and create a lifestyle that brings you joy, inspiration, and a sense of artistic fulfillment.
This is all exactly right, well-organized, and clearly said. In keeping with the non-controversial outlook that we've noticed, the answer doesn't include things like drug-taking, or sex practices that are risky or exploitative. But you could practically print this out and keep it on hand as a reminder for how you want your life to go.
Hell, its list seems noticeably silent on the subject of tortoise care. And if you’ve actually read À Rebours, you probably remember that poor tortoise.
True, the AI is probably programmed NOT to give fatal pet advice.
May 13, 2023 at 10:43 pm (This post was last modified: May 13, 2023 at 11:10 pm by Rev. Rye.)
Nope. It’s an image I found on Reddit. Though thinking about it makes me curious about making something similar, but I know I’d have to start with a taxidermied tortoise, because doing that shit to a living tortoise would kill it, and I draw the line at cruelty towards any living vertebrates.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.
I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
(May 13, 2023 at 10:43 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: Nope. It’s an image I found on Reddit. Though thinking about it makes me curious about making something similar, but I know I’d have to start with a taxidermied tortoise, because doing that shit to a living tortoise would kill it, and I draw the line at cruelty towards any living vertebrates.
There was a store downtown here that had a realistic plastic turtle, about 2 feet across. I seriously considered getting it and adding all the jewels and gold leaf, according to the detailed description in the book. Eventually I realized that it was a pretty crazy fantasy to spend that much money on.
I wonder if some more enthusiastic fan somewhere has actually done it.
May 14, 2023 at 12:21 am (This post was last modified: May 14, 2023 at 12:22 am by Belacqua.)
(May 13, 2023 at 11:25 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: I’d probably find some costume jewelry or maybe some cheaper versions of the jewels listed, either lookalikes, synthetics, or just smaller stones.
You know it occurs to me now...
The advice I got from the AI is quite cleaned-up, sort of made safe for the consumer. You are right to point out that Des Esseintes doesn't mind when he kills the turtle. And at the beginning of the book he pretty much ruins a young man's life -- just for fun -- by paying for him to develop all kind of expensive habits and then suddenly cutting him off, so the guy turns to crime. The Decadence in the book is much more than the luxury hedonism recommended by the AI.
The AI has pretty much made it safe for bourgeois aspirations -- if you make enough money you can buy this lifestyle and feel good about it. It ends up being compatible with Gwyneth Paltrow's lifestyle brand. The moral issues and the edginess involved in a full-on commitment to certain special pleasures are ignored.
It reminds me of the modern US brand of Satanism. Huysmans' Satanism, in Là-Bas, involved serious crime. Plus of course they actually believed in Satan, so they thought they were risking their immortal souls. In America these days it's all cos-play.
One time I read an American "sequel" to Histoire d'O. It so completely missed the point of the original that I couldn't believe it. It was all good clean fun, with a little consensual SM play, and safe words, and everyone wearing white tennis shoes and going out for a beer together afterwards. Least sexy thing I ever read.
Anyway, it seems clear that the AI is going to reinforce the Bourgeois Neoliberal morality of its programmers.
I asked the AI "How can I live like Dorian Gray?" Here is the response.
ChatGPT
Living like Dorian Gray, the fictional character from Oscar Wilde's novel, involves immortality and the preservation of youth and beauty while a portrait ages in your place. While achieving immortality or supernatural preservation of youth is not possible, there are ways you can focus on personal growth, self-care, and maintaining a youthful mindset. Here are some suggestions:
Embrace a healthy lifestyle: Maintain a balanced diet, exercise regularly, and get enough sleep. Taking care of your physical well-being can help you feel energetic and vibrant.
Cultivate your mind: Engage in lifelong learning, read books, explore different subjects, and expand your knowledge. Intellectual stimulation can keep your mind sharp and curious.
Practice self-care: Take care of your mental and emotional well-being. Engage in activities that bring you joy and relaxation, such as meditation, hobbies, or spending time in nature. Prioritize self-care to reduce stress and maintain a positive mindset.
Nurture your relationships: Surround yourself with positive, supportive people who inspire and uplift you. Cultivate meaningful connections and spend quality time with loved ones. Strong relationships can contribute to a fulfilling and joyful life.
Pursue your passions: Discover and pursue activities that ignite your passion and bring you fulfillment. Whether it's art, music, writing, or any other creative endeavor, engaging in what you love can bring a sense of purpose and fulfillment.
Maintain a positive outlook: Focus on maintaining an optimistic and positive mindset. Cultivate gratitude for the present moment and the experiences life offers. Embrace challenges as opportunities for growth and maintain a sense of wonder and curiosity.
Take care of your appearance: While you can't halt the natural aging process, practicing good grooming and personal hygiene can help you present yourself in a polished and confident manner. Dress in a way that reflects your personal style and makes you feel good about yourself.
Stay curious and adaptable: Embrace change and seek new experiences. Stay open to learning and evolving, as this can keep your perspective fresh and prevent stagnation.
Remember, Dorian Gray's story ultimately highlights the dangers of pursuing eternal youth and beauty at any cost. Instead of focusing solely on external appearances, strive for personal growth, self-care, and a fulfilling life.
Anybody who's read the book knows that Dorian Gray is fantastically immoral. He's a murderer, he's indifferent to the hearts he breaks, he has all kinds of habits that Wilde hints at but which are too immoral to describe in the book.
The AI has entirely changed that into "Embrace a healthy lifestyle: Maintain a balanced diet, exercise regularly, and get enough sleep. Taking care of your physical well-being can help you feel energetic and vibrant." Exactly the opposite of everything Dorian Gray did.
Me: "Hello, I want to become an immoral aesthete and murderer!" AI: "Well, then, get plenty of exercise, eat well, and visit your doctor twice a year."
Me: "I want to become a selfish monster who uses and abuses everyone he knows!" AI: "Nurture your relationships: Surround yourself with positive, supportive people who inspire and uplift you. Cultivate meaningful connections and spend quality time with loved ones. Strong relationships can contribute to a fulfilling and joyful life."
I think we can all agree that what I'm asking for is unhealthy and what the AI recommends is good advice for a conventionally happy life. The point is that it's a conventionally happy life.
I can just imagine ChatGPT being asked about how to be like Lester Ballard from Cormac McCarthy's Child of God.
After serious attempts at trying to answer your question while trying to stay within the confines of what's acceptable to our algorithm, we've determined the following pieces of advice would help you in your quest:
Take long walks in the woods. It gets the air into your lungs and you never know who or what you'll find.
If you have a speech impediment, don't be afraid to let it all out. After all, you are a "Child of God."
Always remember to keep flammable materials away from highly flammable hay.
If going off the grid, learn to hunt. Marksmanship also comes in handy if the carnival comes to town and you want to win a tiger for any lady friends you might have.
While occasionally risky, cave exploration can be an exhilirating hobby.
Not caring about others' expectations for you can certainly make life less stressful.
And for those of you who haven't read the book or seen the movie, well...
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.
I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
May 14, 2023 at 3:24 am (This post was last modified: May 14, 2023 at 4:47 am by emjay.)
(May 14, 2023 at 12:56 am)Belacqua Wrote: OK, this is hilarious.
I asked the AI "How can I live like Dorian Gray?" Here is the response.
ChatGPT
Living like Dorian Gray, the fictional character from Oscar Wilde's novel, involves immortality and the preservation of youth and beauty while a portrait ages in your place. While achieving immortality or supernatural preservation of youth is not possible, there are ways you can focus on personal growth, self-care, and maintaining a youthful mindset. Here are some suggestions:
Embrace a healthy lifestyle: Maintain a balanced diet, exercise regularly, and get enough sleep. Taking care of your physical well-being can help you feel energetic and vibrant.
Cultivate your mind: Engage in lifelong learning, read books, explore different subjects, and expand your knowledge. Intellectual stimulation can keep your mind sharp and curious.
Practice self-care: Take care of your mental and emotional well-being. Engage in activities that bring you joy and relaxation, such as meditation, hobbies, or spending time in nature. Prioritize self-care to reduce stress and maintain a positive mindset.
Nurture your relationships: Surround yourself with positive, supportive people who inspire and uplift you. Cultivate meaningful connections and spend quality time with loved ones. Strong relationships can contribute to a fulfilling and joyful life.
Pursue your passions: Discover and pursue activities that ignite your passion and bring you fulfillment. Whether it's art, music, writing, or any other creative endeavor, engaging in what you love can bring a sense of purpose and fulfillment.
Maintain a positive outlook: Focus on maintaining an optimistic and positive mindset. Cultivate gratitude for the present moment and the experiences life offers. Embrace challenges as opportunities for growth and maintain a sense of wonder and curiosity.
Take care of your appearance: While you can't halt the natural aging process, practicing good grooming and personal hygiene can help you present yourself in a polished and confident manner. Dress in a way that reflects your personal style and makes you feel good about yourself.
Stay curious and adaptable: Embrace change and seek new experiences. Stay open to learning and evolving, as this can keep your perspective fresh and prevent stagnation.
Remember, Dorian Gray's story ultimately highlights the dangers of pursuing eternal youth and beauty at any cost. Instead of focusing solely on external appearances, strive for personal growth, self-care, and a fulfilling life.
Anybody who's read the book knows that Dorian Gray is fantastically immoral. He's a murderer, he's indifferent to the hearts he breaks, he has all kinds of habits that Wilde hints at but which are too immoral to describe in the book.
The AI has entirely changed that into "Embrace a healthy lifestyle: Maintain a balanced diet, exercise regularly, and get enough sleep. Taking care of your physical well-being can help you feel energetic and vibrant." Exactly the opposite of everything Dorian Gray did.
Me: "Hello, I want to become an immoral aesthete and murderer!" AI: "Well, then, get plenty of exercise, eat well, and visit your doctor twice a year."
Me: "I want to become a selfish monster who uses and abuses everyone he knows!" AI: "Nurture your relationships: Surround yourself with positive, supportive people who inspire and uplift you. Cultivate meaningful connections and spend quality time with loved ones. Strong relationships can contribute to a fulfilling and joyful life."
I think we can all agree that what I'm asking for is unhealthy and what the AI recommends is good advice for a conventionally happy life. The point is that it's a conventionally happy life.
I actually know what you're talking about there (which is rare ) having at least watched the film, if not read the book.
Each to their own of course, but personally I don't care if this thing is highly curated/censored, and not 'edgy', since I'm primarily using it as something like a talking encyclopaedia, in which case I am generally looking for the conventional wisdom. But of course I understand your use case is completely different, so I understand your frustrations as well. I do agree it's a bit of a shame if it means it's missing the essence of some of these 'edgy' books. But since from its perspective it doesn't figuratively 'know' if it's reading fiction or fact, art or opinion - since the training data is ultimately just a massive list of words/word-parts - I still think the censorship is probably a wise trade-off to prevent it becoming a 'shitbot'.
I will say though, it is opening me up to your kind of way of thinking as well, though probably in ways you wouldn't necessarily approve of in that I've asked it to write several poems, many of which I've found pretty meaningful and beautiful, but I'm guessing that from your perspective you'd still see that as a negative? Ie thinking that on-demand AI-generated art lacks some essential human element that the AI can't or won't capture, the desire/passion that's gone into it etc (if I've understood what you were trying to say before)? While I understand that, I'm still personally appreciating this bottom-up approach to art; and am happy enough if it's able to capture the exact feeling I want it to portray, and happier still to see its many interpretations.
At the very least, I think it will be a stepping-stone into the art/literature world, not just in seeing how you literate-types are using it, but also just the 'inter-mixture' of synthetic and real that it represents, as well as the ability to use it for comparison, collation etc of perspectives.
(May 14, 2023 at 2:02 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: I can just imagine ChatGPT being asked about how to be like Lester Ballard from Cormac McCarthy's Child of God.
After serious attempts at trying to answer your question while trying to stay within the confines of what's acceptable to our algorithm, we've determined the following pieces of advice would help you in your quest:
Take long walks in the woods. It gets the air into your lungs and you never know who or what you'll find.
If you have a speech impediment, don't be afraid to let it all out. After all, you are a "Child of God."
Always remember to keep flammable materials away from highly flammable hay.
If going off the grid, learn to hunt. Marksmanship also comes in handy if the carnival comes to town and you want to win a tiger for any lady friends you might have.
While occasionally risky, cave exploration can be an exhilirating hobby.
Not caring about others' expectations for you can certainly make life less stressful.
And for those of you who haven't read the book or seen the movie, well...
That's good! I don't know that movie at all, but when I was trying to think of characters with -- shall we say -- problematic moral messages, I did think of the villain from No Country for Old Men. I don't know the books well enough to figure out if there's a subtext, or if it's just a portrayal of violence. I do think that a lot of modern people in the US will feel admiration for the characters' successful use of violence.
So it puts the AI in a difficult spot. I suppose what it comes down to is legal liability. If the AI were to recommend or praise some behavior that got someone into trouble, a lawsuit would be inevitable. So they have to keep their analysis as anodyne and school-teacherish as possible.
(May 14, 2023 at 3:24 am)emjay Wrote: I actually know what you're talking about there (which is rare ) having at least watched the film, if not read the book.
Each to their own of course, but personally I don't care if this thing is highly curated/censored, and not 'edgy', since I'm primarily using it as something like a talking encyclopaedia, in which case I am generally looking for the conventional wisdom. But of course I understand your use case is completely different, so I understand your frustrations as well. I do agree it's a bit of a shame if it means it's missing the essence of some of these 'edgy' books. But since from its perspective it doesn't figuratively 'know' if it's reading fiction or fact, art or opinion - since the training data is ultimately just a massive list of words/word-parts - I still think the censorship is probably a wise trade-off to prevent it becoming a 'shitbot'.
I will say though, it is opening me up to your kind of way of thinking as well, though probably in ways you wouldn't necessarily approve of in that I've asked it to write several poems, many of which I've found pretty meaningful and beautiful, but I'm guessing that from your perspective you'd still see that as a negative? Ie thinking that on-demand AI-generated art lacks some essential human element that the AI can't or won't capture, the desire/passion that's gone into it etc (if I've understood what you were trying to say before)? While I understand that, I'm still personally appreciating this bottom-up approach to art; and am happy enough if it's able to capture the exact feeling I want it to portray, and happier still to see its many interpretations.
At the very least, I think it will be a stepping-stone into the art/literature world, not just in seeing how you literate-types are using it, but also just the 'inter-mixture' of synthetic and real that it represents, as well as the ability to use it for comparison, collation etc of perspectives.
If you're getting results from the AI that work for you, I would never speak against that. I agree that watching how it expresses and organizes things is fascinating and could be very helpful. A clear articulation of even our most common thoughts is a pleasure to read. "What oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed."
I think where it differs from human literature is in the range of its possibilities for expression. A whole lot of art is based in irony of various kinds. William Blake's poems, for example, are almost all written in the voice of a character who isn't Blake. We are to see through the character's expression to a further meaning which fits in which Blake's own system.
Dorian Gray is meant to be a very appealing character, in a lot of ways, and when I was young I thought of him as a kind of aspiration. At the same time, he's horrible. So there is that double or triple layer in books -- they are not just a simple statement of events but a challenge, a puzzle, a lasting unresolvable image.
Currently I'm reading Nabokov's Lolita with a group of older Japanese ladies. Nabokov is in some ways an heir of Oscar Wilde since he believes that the quality of a book is not in its morality but in its beauty. And as we read it there is a constant tension between the extreme beauty of the book's writing vs. the extreme evil of its main character (the man who rapes Lolita). The whole book is told in the man's voice, and he attempts to justify himself or somehow persuade us that his love should make him forgivable. But even as he tells it, the reader can see through what's going on and understand a lot more than he tells us. Just in this it is an incredible literary performance -- the book tells us things that its narrator would never say. And on top of this there are all kinds of puns, word games, and references which I don't think an AI could ever manage.
So this is what I think makes literature different from what an AI can do, at least for the foreseeable future. An AI might generate a sequel to Harry Potter or some other kids' book that works on a simple level, but good literature does way more than that.
![[Image: 97aw1557q5l51.jpg]](https://i.redd.it/97aw1557q5l51.jpg)
![[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/yxR97P23/harmlesskitchen.png)
) having at least watched the film, if not read the book.