Question for Theists

[The Grand Nudger]

Not at all.  Universalism is a rejection of judeochristian values from within the judeochristian envelope.  A late rejection, at that, as christianity has been infiltrated by and incorporated even more novel pagan and secular ideas than it had at it's conception.  

It's the bridge between what christianity is or was, to what that community of faith will become....lauded by us, perhaps..but feared by their holymen.  A post christian christianity.

Now you're just arguing semantics.  You'll be trotting out some true Scotsmen for us next.

....?  I think they're all true scotsmen - but, ofc, the scotsmen called themselves something else at some point.  What we see now is a christianity in flux.  Its not just sociologists and poll takers who've noticed - christian leaders are pulling the fire alarm about it.  

I'm not defining christianity, to say that some are and some aren't christian - christianity is redefining itself as to what the statement even means. Emjays kinder christianity is representative of that. At it's core, though, it's still revisionism.... as the people who peddle it today falsely claim that this is what it always was. Christ, in the red letters, actually touched this topic himself..or so the story goes...and the story doesn't paint his alleged beliefs or mission in such a kind light.

[Belacqua]

You mean roughly similar to what I think it was Drich used to say, ie that 'love thy neighbour' only really meant 'love thy Christian neighbour'? In other words love your Christian brother but everyone else can go to hell, literally and figuratively in this sense.

There's been debate about this among Christians, right from the beginning. 

A lot of early Christians assumed that Hell would be a temporary place of cleansing, similar to Dante's Purgatory. It's not pleasant, but nobody goes there forever. 

Augustine settled the issue for most, by arguing for eternal punishment, but there has always been dissension. Contrary to what some here think about the church, they don't burn everybody who argues theological points. 

Currently the debate is active on line, since David Bentley Hart, who is a popular East Orthodox translator and theologian, published a book saying that in the end everyone will go to heaven. Edward Feser, who is his conservative Catholic counterpart, of course disagrees. 

I thought it was interesting that Lewis Carroll spent a great deal of time on the issue. The idea that hell is eternal depends largely on the translation of a single Greek word in the New Testament. But like a lot of Ancient Greek, the translation is not 100% certain, and reasonable people may disagree. Lewis Carroll, being a well-educated guy, knew Greek and wrote his interpretations of it. 

It is also important that many Christians do believe in an eternal hell, but are strict about remembering that only God decides who goes there. 

On the old Amazon forums there was a conservative Catholic guy who thought that gay sex was bad, but whenever it came up also emphasized that each and every one of us is full of sin, and so it's not our place to judge others' sins. He said that we are to forgive (as we hope to be forgiven), no matter what God does.

So Grand Nudnik's experience of Christianity is far from universal.

[h4ym4n]

Do xians believe they go right to heaven or hell right at the moment of death or

Are they sleeping in the grave waiting for jesus to return where those in christ rise first?

[Belacqua]

Do xians believe they go right to heaven or hell right at the moment of death or

Are they sleeping in the grave waiting for jesus to return where those in christ rise first?

Opinions differ.

[Bucky Ball]

Do xians believe they go right to heaven or hell right at the moment of death or

Are they sleeping in the grave waiting for jesus to return where those in christ rise first?

Christians believe they have immortal souls. 
They don't sleep. 
Christians believe in saints, and these saints' immortal souls go to or are in heaven. 

Jewish immortality (those or that sect that believed in immortality) was that AT THE END of times, they would be resurrected.

[Belacqua]

Christians believe in saints

Catholics believe in saints and Protestants don't.

[quote]

, and these saints' immortal souls go to or are in heaven.

[quote]

As to when they go, opinions differ.

[Bucky Ball]

Christians believe in saints

Catholics believe in saints and Protestants don't.

, and these saints' immortal souls go to or are in heaven.

As to when they go, opinions differ.

Sorry. Anglicans for sure, (the Book Of Common Prayer's last section as I recall, is full of the feasts of saints), (Protestants) and I think Lutherans have liturgical years, and at least the Anglican's year is full of the feats of saints. Try not to talk about that which you are ignorant. Many Anglican parishes are named for saints. In fact one of the most amazing choirs in the US, is at All Saints Episcopal Church in Beverly Hills. You should go hear them some time. A very welcoming community.

"They also celebrated those saints from the Bible, particularly the New Testament: the apostles and evangelists, St. Stephen, Holy Innocents, St. John the Baptist, St. Michael the Archangel, and All Saints’ Day." https://lutheranreformation.org/theology...(e.g.%20St.

[emjay]

You mean roughly similar to what I think it was Drich used to say, ie that 'love thy neighbour' only really meant 'love thy Christian neighbour'? In other words love your Christian brother but everyone else can go to hell, literally and figuratively in this sense.

There's been debate about this among Christians, right from the beginning. 

A lot of early Christians assumed that Hell would be a temporary place of cleansing, similar to Dante's Purgatory. It's not pleasant, but nobody goes there forever. 

Augustine settled the issue for most, by arguing for eternal punishment, but there has always been dissension. Contrary to what some here think about the church, they don't burn everybody who argues theological points. 

Currently the debate is active on line, since David Bentley Hart, who is a popular East Orthodox translator and theologian, published a book saying that in the end everyone will go to heaven. Edward Feser, who is his conservative Catholic counterpart, of course disagrees. 

I thought it was interesting that Lewis Carroll spent a great deal of time on the issue. The idea that hell is eternal depends largely on the translation of a single Greek word in the New Testament. But like a lot of Ancient Greek, the translation is not 100% certain, and reasonable people may disagree. Lewis Carroll, being a well-educated guy, knew Greek and wrote his interpretations of it. 

It is also important that many Christians do believe in an eternal hell, but are strict about remembering that only God decides who goes there. 

On the old Amazon forums there was a conservative Catholic guy who thought that gay sex was bad, but whenever it came up also emphasized that each and every one of us is full of sin, and so it's not our place to judge others' sins. He said that we are to forgive (as we hope to be forgiven), no matter what God does.

So Grand Nudnik's experience of Christianity is far from universal.

I'm aware there are different interpretations of what hell is/would be, its duration, and who goes there, but in my experience the majority of people I've met, on and offline, believe in the bog standard eternal fire and brimstone idea. Within that group there are those, mainly offline, that have expressed real and heartfelt concern for my soul, and those are the ones I respect the most because it shows that a) they truly believe what they're saying and have given it a lot of thought, and b) that they are compassionate. Then there are those that don't dwell on it, probably compartmentalise it, certainly don't threaten or posture with it. And then, mainly online, in my experience, are the sadistic ones who seem to relish the prospect of people going there, and use it as a weapon in argument. Those are the ones I have no respect for.

[h4ym4n]

Do xians believe they go right to heaven or hell right at the moment of death or

Are they sleeping in the grave waiting for jesus to return where those in christ rise first?

Opinions differ.

Here’s an opinion from the instruction book

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
King James Version
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[h4ym4n]

Well this was no fun