Fine Tuning Principle: Devastating Disproof and Scientific Refutation of Atheism.

[Anomalocaris]

I have to say something; if the universe is not made for life, which I do not doubt, at all; then the universe was not made for humans, and thus was not made to have anything to do with the concepts of good and evil, especially how humans view those concepts. Therefore, there is no need for Heaven and Hell, which are based on the concepts of good and evil respectively, for the universe, and with that, there is not even a need for the Devil or even God. The only need for any of those are psychological needs for them, which are not accurate at all. Plus, the user does not need a sentient force or being like God to be created, and I am pretty sure the universe was created without (any) God. If God made the universe as humans say he did, he would have made it for life for sure, especially humans. But the universe is not made for life as it turns out, due to the many harmful things that can harm and kill humans. Heck! Many things on Earth, where we live and is probably the safest place for humans, can harm and kill humans too. That certainly tells a lot, does it not?

That only works if we think the most overreaching, exclusionary and imperialistic possible conception of god is the only possible conception of god.

[ShinyCrystals]

I have to say something; if the universe is not made for life, which I do not doubt, at all; then the universe was not made for humans, and thus was not made to have anything to do with the concepts of good and evil, especially how humans view those concepts. Therefore, there is no need for Heaven and Hell, which are based on the concepts of good and evil respectively, for the universe, and with that, there is not even a need for the Devil or even God. The only need for any of those are psychological needs for them, which are not accurate at all. Plus, the user does not need a sentient force or being like God to be created, and I am pretty sure the universe was created without (any) God. If God made the universe as humans say he did, he would have made it for life for sure, especially humans. But the universe is not made for life as it turns out, due to the many harmful things that can harm and kill humans. Heck! Many things on Earth, where we live and is probably the safest place for humans, can harm and kill humans too. That certainly tells a lot, does it not?

That only works if we think the most overreaching, exclusionary and imperialistic possible conception of god is the only possible conception of god.

Forgive me, but for clarification, what do you mean by that?

[Bucky Ball]

The average life of a black hole is 10^100 years. As far as we know the universe was not "made" for life, but "allowed" it to arise in very rare circumstances, (or "eventually").
We may find it is far less rare than we know, but now, we really can't say that arising once, it was "made" for life.
We only know about 5 % of this universe. 95 % of this universe is Dark Energy and Dark Matter, and we pretty much know nothing about the properties of either, except that they seem to interact with gravity. The universe is also slowly cooling. We don't know what other aspects of matter or other properties may fall out, as it cools.

[Anomalocaris]

That only works if we think the most overreaching, exclusionary and imperialistic possible conception of god is the only possible conception of god.

Forgive me, but for clarification, what do you mean by that?

What you say only applies to the concept of a lone, supreme, universe creating god who is himself outside the universe, as advocated by Christianity and Islam.  These objections do not necessarily apply to concepts of beings less over reaching than the “my god is so big it is bigger than any conceivable bigness” sort of puffed up Christian hyperventilation.

[Anomalocaris]

The average life of a black hole is 10^100 years. As far as we know the universe was not "made" for life, but "allowed" it to arise in very rare circumstances, (or "eventually").
We may find it is far less rare than we know, but now, we really can't say that arising once, it was "made" for life.
We only know about 5 % of this universe. 95 % of this universe is Dark Energy and Dark Matter, and we pretty much know nothing about the properties of either, except that they seem to interact with gravity. The universe is also slowly cooling. We don't know what other aspects of matter or other properties may fall out, as it cools.

The universe is as much made for rocks as it is made for life. 

One might as well say universe made humans so some special chosen rocks have something soft to fall upon.

[ShinyCrystals]

Forgive me, but for clarification, what do you mean by that?

What you say only applies to the concept of a lone, supreme, universe creating god who is himself outside the universe, as advocated by Christianity and Islam.  These objections do not necessarily apply to concepts of beings less over reaching than the “my god is so big it is bigger than any conceivable bigness” sort of puffed up Christian hyperventilation.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I guess I should have clarified that I was not including other gods because, as it would seem, I was talking about the kind of God you speak of.  Nothing other than that.

But either way, tell me, how could the universe have happened if God did not exist? Thing is, I am pretty sure that God does not exist. There are many ways for something to happen. I can say that the universe could have formed in a way without the need for a supreme being.

Still, tell me, you weren't directly talking about what I said about the universe not being made for humans, were you?

That said, if a god was to be responsible for the universe, if I read your post correctly, I think the less over reaching gods would not be needed to make things happen that are of their domain. Gods of lightning, love, fire, the sea, etc., those things can be, and most likely have been brought to existence without their respective gods.

So even without talking about the supreme being itself, which still does not exist, what I said, may be applicable to less over reaching gods, if I read your post correctly, if that is what you mean by less over reaching gods (I could be wrong); in their case, there is still more individualization, but we don't have to put the universe itself into the equation, right?

[Anomalocaris]

What you say only applies to the concept of a lone, supreme, universe creating god who is himself outside the universe, as advocated by Christianity and Islam.  These objections do not necessarily apply to concepts of beings less over reaching than the “my god is so big it is bigger than any conceivable bigness” sort of puffed up Christian hyperventilation.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I guess I should have clarified that I was not including other gods because, as it would seem, I was talking about the kind of God you speak of.  Nothing other than that.

But either way, tell me, how could the universe have happened if God did not exist? Thing is, I am pretty sure that God does not exist. There are many ways for something to happen. I can say that the universe could have formed in a way without the need for a supreme being.

Still, tell me, you weren't directly talking about what I said about the universe not being made for humans, were you?

That said, if a god was to be responsible for the universe, if I read your post correctly, I think the less over reaching gods would not be needed to make things happen that are of their domain. Gods of lightning, love, fire, the sea, etc., those things can be, and most likely have been brought to existence without their respective gods.

So even without talking about the supreme being itself, which still does not exist, what I said, may be applicable to less over reaching gods, if I read your post correctly, if that is what you mean by less over reaching gods (I could be wrong); in their case, there is still more individualization, but we don't have to put the universe itself into the equation, right?

If the god isn’t outside the universe and made the universe, then there is no question of what the universe is made for.    However it is still possible to postulate a god within a universe that wasn’t made for anything acting to make a part of that universe suitable for man.

[ShinyCrystals]

Yeah, I see what you mean. I guess I should have clarified that I was not including other gods because, as it would seem, I was talking about the kind of God you speak of.  Nothing other than that.

But either way, tell me, how could the universe have happened if God did not exist? Thing is, I am pretty sure that God does not exist. There are many ways for something to happen. I can say that the universe could have formed in a way without the need for a supreme being.

Still, tell me, you weren't directly talking about what I said about the universe not being made for humans, were you?

That said, if a god was to be responsible for the universe, if I read your post correctly, I think the less over reaching gods would not be needed to make things happen that are of their domain. Gods of lightning, love, fire, the sea, etc., those things can be, and most likely have been brought to existence without their respective gods.

So even without talking about the supreme being itself, which still does not exist, what I said, may be applicable to less over reaching gods, if I read your post correctly, if that is what you mean by less over reaching gods (I could be wrong); in their case, there is still more individualization, but we don't have to put the universe itself into the equation, right?

If the god isn’t outside the universe and made the universe, then there is no question of what the universe is made for.    However it is still possible to postulate a god within a universe that wasn’t made for anything acting to made a part of that universe suitable for man.

I see.

Still, I have read many times, as many people say, what is outside the universe is, well, nothing. Sure, a religious person might say God can exist in nothingness, but still, if god is anything, what is nothingness if there is something in it? To me, it is not nothingness. God is something, and that something makes what is said to be outside the universe not perfectly nothing. This is about the supreme deity thing that is out side the universe, by the way.

That said, I don't think God can exist, or could have made the universe, at least not in the image of humans or how humans think it was made. With the number of paradoxes in things like omnipotence and God himself, I don't think a God could exist anyway. God would violate too many laws of physics, to the point that existence for God is impossible.

I just think there is no need for a God, or the Devil, or even Heaven and Hell, as the universe is not based on Good or Evil, nor does it revolve around the human race.

[ShinyCrystals]

Well, one more thing I have to say, two things, that is...

One...if the universe was not made for life in many (and yet not all) ways int he sense that it is easy for living beings to get killed or harmed, among other things, I also would like to think the universe was not made in mind for humans and what they want. Seriously, the laws of physics prevent ideal things that humans may want or would make things easier, like instant acceleration, infinite speed, ideal efficiency for machines, and other things. Plus, it does not help that the universe, or nature, makes it so that resistance and conflict being a part of our lives, which is necessary, by the way, would prevent people from reaching a paradise-like society, which is not even needed and may even be pointless, since we have to learn from our mistakes and resistance and conflict can and does make our lives better.

What I am trying to say is that if god did exist and created the universe, and he cared about and loved humanity, he would not have made this universe that we live in the way it is now. I do think that with how the universe ultimately came to be by the time humans came into existence, god was not the one who made the universe or the universe would be more so or even perfectly for humans.

Two...someone did say changing the constants of the universe would have bad effects on life, did they not? I can see that being the case. In fact, I read that if the Earth changed orbit slightly, there would be still drastic consequences and dire results on life. With a number of individual constants, if god existed them and change them, I bet even he would have trouble keeping life safe if he were to change these constants, or any of the physical laws of physics for that matter. One change in anything could make things dire and destructive for life anywhere, and I can imagine there would have to be a lot of trade offs and sacrifices done by god to make these changes works, as in balancing things.

Sure, god is said to be omnipotent and omniscient, but god is described to be human-like by the ones who conceived him, so it is likely he is not all that powerful or knowledgeable as people say he is. Now, for reasons, true omnipotence cannot exist. And with how the universe works as well as some things not being able to be done, I doubt omniscience can exist either.

As said before, god exists as psychological need, and psychological needs can't help a person. Plus, I believe if anyone could change the universe's constants or physical laws, dire and destructive consequences would happen if they tried to do so. In fact, I can see that to be the reason why god does not change the constants or laws of physics himself, and considering such a being has not changed such things, that should add some to why god does not exist overall to me.

[The Grand Nudger]

The plus side, and the side that the faithful commonly miss, is that if we can discard with the premise that the universe was made for us, we can discard the much more convincing premise that it was made to kill us. We're universe shaped, not the other way around, full stop. That gets their silly gods off alot of hooks, even if their compulsive need for absolute political authority won't allow them to avail themselves of that reality.

Personally, I don't think you need to know anything about the universe, or that anything about the universe that we don't know is the best argument for or against gods. That would be much more earthly and mundane shit that we do know about people, and that we do know about gods. Brihaspati didn't know shit about celestial mechanics or quantum physics or evolutionary biology, but he knew a con when he saw it.