Is the suffering worth it

[Angrboda]

I can't recall what was said, but do you believe there is anything in what I've left that would be inconsistent with what I said?

Yes, that any of it has to do with personal meanings.

By freewill I mean libertarian freewill.  Whether meaningful or not, I don't think libertarian freewill exists and cannot exist under physicalism, and that everything was determined by a prior state of affairs going back to the early universe.

So to me, you could never have chosen X rather than Y regardless of the illusion that you could have.

I would think the question of whether not having libertarian free will is meaningful would be something a nihilist would answer in the negative.

Depends on the type of nihilist.  I'm the type that accepts the existence of the sensation of subjective meaningfulness.

No, I don't think that's true.  Nihilism isn't about personal meaning, so regardless of whether it has subjective meaning or not, you would still answer in the negative or you're using nihilism in an unconventional way.

[Thumpalumpacus]

True, I haven't supported that claim here.  I don't think freewill can exist under a materialist/physicalist  worldview.  Do you agree with that, but just reject materialism, or do you think it can exist under materialism?

I see the universe as materialistic, but don't think it's been shown that that means every particle's position is utterly predictable. I don't know much about the wave function of quantum mechanics, but even if that won't allow free will, I'd think chaos theory could perhaps allow for it. I just don't know.

As for who experiences subjective badness, prior to death I (laying aside the issue of identity persistence) experience the negative emotions associated with believing a substantial loss is immanent.  After death there will be no I to experience the loss itself, because I will have lost myself  (though others may be upset at my dying).  The loss only negatively affects me whilst I exist) and others afterwards).  But that's a 'bad thing' I'd rather not occur.

People die in their sleep, too. I get it, the process of dying is scary -- but there are exceptions even to that.

[FrustratedFool]

At best, as much as I can understand, QM allows for randomness but not agent causality in the universe. I can't see how LFW can possibly exist under materialism.

Please see the relevant YT video by Sabine Hossenfelder.

I'll put link, but it may get expunged:
https://youtu.be/TI5FMj5D9zU

[Thumpalumpacus]

At best, as much as I can understand, QM allows for randomness but not agent causality in the universe.  I can't see how LFW can possibly exist under materialism.

Please see the relevant YT video by Sabine Hossenfelder.

I'll put link, but it may get expunged:
https://youtu.be/TI5FMj5D9zU

I prefer discussions, I can watch youtube on my own time. I wonder how QM might affect the molecules in the brain making the decision.

[HappySkeptic]

At best, as much as I can understand, QM allows for randomness but not agent causality in the universe.  I can't see how LFW can possibly exist under materialism.

Please see the relevant YT video by Sabine Hossenfelder.

I'll put link, but it may get expunged:
...

I agree.

I would argue that the concept of free-will is logically inconsistent.

That doesn't mean that humans don't have agency, because we do.  I'm not sure how to define agency, as some definitions would include current AI, and I'm not sure that's correct.  

We make goal-directed choices, but we do this from an internal chaotic system.  Our brains work in a complex feedback loop.  This feedback results in a chaotic system where one cannot predict the choice accurately, even if one had an exact computer analog of our internal brain state.  The choice can also be altered by conditioning, such as laws and moral belief, making the idea of being "responsible for one's actions" reasonable (not because our choices are un-caused, but because knowledge of the rules allows most people to follow them).

[Ravenshire]

This never made sense to me with you hard core believers in an afterlife that’s supposed to be paradise.

My suffering is greater than my pleasure and I would still rather be alive.




It’s like YOU don’t believe this afterlife bullshit.


Can you explain why you would rather suffer then experiencing bliss?

I never said I believe in an afterlife, I really don't. This life is all we have. Non-existence serves no purpose.

So, reincarnation isn't real?!? Keeping up with your self-contradictions is a full time job.

[The Valkyrie]

No.

[arewethereyet]

I never said I believe in an afterlife, I really don't. This life is all we have. Non-existence serves no purpose.

So, reincarnation isn't real?!? Keeping up with your self-contradictions is a full time job.

Ahri doesn't know where he lives.  I don't figure he has much else figured out. He says what he thinks will fit into a conversation.

[MarcusA]

Should we suffer for being postmodern?

[Ahriman]

So, reincarnation isn't real?!? Keeping up with your self-contradictions is a full time job.

Ahri doesn't know where he lives.  I don't figure he has much else figured out. He says what he thinks will fit into a conversation.

I'm working on it. I've been trying to be less overly personal and more objective and informative.