How does your WV inform your politics?

[Angrboda]

Real world religion clearly leads to all manner of harms or social issues: from crusades to conversion therapy, from jihadis to FGM, from creationism to sexual prudery.

I think it abundantly clear that not having these incorrect and immoral, but very popular and insidious, belief systems in the world would make the world a better place.

At no point in this thread has much else been said by me, yet that alone was enough for a few posters to take umbrage with and challenge my viewpoint.

What exactly have I said that you think is wrong?

If you and others have kicked up a fuss for a banal no-trousers viewpoint, that's hardly my fault, is it?  I was simply following the line of the OP and saying how my own WV affects my own political opinions.  If others have constructed a fiend of their own projections, I am not to blame.

Methodology for bringing about this Lennonesque religious utopia has never been discussed. Ask away, if you wish.  But we hadn't even got to such details for people said I was wrong.  So before we go further, what exactly have I said so far that you think is monstrous?

What you've said is that having certain thoughts, without corresponding actions, is in itself bad for society. And it's not an objective fact that religion necessarily leads to those harms so you're basing your objection to religion on your mere opinion. They're basing their objection to the harms of LBGTQ people is also based upon their opinion. Your thread itself is about whether your worldview informs your politics, and your answer was yes, in this specific way. There's a much more direct link from politically advocating for an end to religion and laws being enacted to make it a reality, so if you're advocating for it politically, it isn't an idle thought. It's one definition of politics and government that it is about the distribution of resources. Arguing to vote for and elect politicians who will enact policies which result in the marginalizing of people with religious beliefs is not mere idle speculation, it's taking steps toward enacting your prejudices into law, so this bullshit that you haven't advocated working towards policies such as laws, budgets, or regulations is false. You've made it very clear that you act politically on this belief, and there's a much more direct line between your politics and such things than there is between believing religious things and any of the ills you want to blame religion for.

[FrustratedFool]

I said that believing X is bad. The reason, as I've outlined multiple times, is that X leads to bad things (usually behaviours, though even just believing a falsehood like creationism is bad in that it harms the believer).

Is it not an objective fact that real world religious beliefs and behaviours lead to social harms? Please give me an example of a real world religion where this is the case, since it seems to me that religion poisons everything (to draw upon Hitchens). What religion, in your opinion, is innocent of causing harm?

[Angrboda]

I said that believing X is bad.  The reason, as I've outlined multiple times, is that X leads to bad things (usually behaviours, though even just believing a falsehood like creationism is bad).

Is it not an objective fact that real world religious behaviours lead to social harms?  Please give me an example of a real world religion where this is the case, since it seems to me that religion poisons everything (to draw upon Hitchens).

No, it is not. If it were, you'd have an actual justification, but you don't.

And since it's not my claim, you need to demonstrate that it is. So I'll ignore your question for now as it seems a transparent attempt to shift the burden of proof.

[FrustratedFool]

You may disagree with my warrant, but you can't claim I haven't given you one.

To make it more clear:

Islam harms society because its adherents will inevitably do things or try and do things that cause harm, such as medically unnecessary infant circumcisions. I believe I have warrant for this belief because every Islamic society and the vast majority of individual Muslims practice or attempt to practice or express the desire to practice infant medically unnecessary infant circumcision.

Now you can either accept I'm correct, or defeat my argument. But I'm not trying to play a rhetorical burden shifting game here.

[Angrboda]

You may disagree with my warrant, but you can't claim I haven't given you one.

To make it more clear:

Islam harms society because its adherents will inevitably do things or try and do things that cause harm, such as medically unnecessary infant circumcisions.   I believe I have warrant for this belief because every Islamic society and the vast majority of individual Muslims practice or attempt to practice or express the desire to practice infant medically unnecessary infant circumcision.  

Now you can either accept I'm correct, or defeat my argument.  But I'm not trying to play a rhetorical burden shifting game here.

As I pointed out in the other thread, your 'inevitably' here is invalid, as it isn't necessarily true that they will. Thus your warrant is invalid on the face of it. You're basically arguing that correlation is causation, which is invalid. When we allow ice cream trucks to do business, people die. On your argument we thus have a warrant for banning ice cream trucks. It's completely absurd. Additionally, your warrant depends upon your views of infant circumcision being correct. Good luck with that.

[FrustratedFool]

Necessarily? OK. If we are going for that level of precision of language:

Islam harms society because its adherents will most likely do things or try and do things that cause harm, such as medically unnecessary infant circumcisions. I believe I have warrant for this belief because every Islamic society and the vast majority of individual Muslims practice or attempt to practice or express the desire to practice infant medically unnecessary infant circumcision.

Do you deny that there is highly likely an influential link between Islamic teaching and Islamic behaviour?

As for infant genital mutilation (as just one example of bad religious behaviour) being bad, I simply argue that it causes suffering for no reason. To show it has a reason you'd have to show that Islam was true. Good luck with that.

[Angrboda]

Necessarily?  OK.  If we are going for that level of precision of language:

Islam harms society because its adherents will most likely do things or try and do things that cause harm, such as medically unnecessary infant circumcisions.   I believe I have warrant for this belief because every Islamic society and the vast majority of individual Muslims practice or attempt to practice or express the desire to practice infant medically unnecessary infant circumcision.

Do you deny that there is highly likely an influential link between Islamic teaching and Islamic behaviour?

As for infant genital mutilation (as just one example of bad religious behaviour) being bad, I simply argue that it causes suffering for no reason.  To show it has a reason you'd have to show that Islam was true.  Good luck with that.

Well, first off, it's generally recognized that parents being allowed to make important decisions for their children is a good, despite that some incidental harm occurs.

As to whether it's likely that Islam will likely lead to these things, that's your case to make. Just as other religions have evolved to become acceptable members of society, so, too, may Islam. And I'll point out that the majority of bad practices in Islam are based on the culture, not the religion, just as many of the despicable laws advocated for by Christians are based as much on their political beliefs as it is their religious ones. So you, at minimum, need to separate out what of the harms you see are actually based upon the religion and that the religion necessarily requires these things, otherwise your warrant is broken. And you're still trying to shift the burden of proof. Apparently, you aren't happy with having to actually prove your points.

[FrustratedFool]

I agree that it's generally recognized that parents make important decisions for their child. That doesn't extend to causing unjustified suffering through permanent body altering medically unnecessary surgery.

I am equally against religious parents tattooing their infants, for example.

My case that Islamic/Qur'anic teaching makes it more likely that Muslims will behave in accordance with that teaching I'd say was self-evident, though it could be backed up by the amazingly close correspondence between Islamic teachings and behaviour by Muslims and Islamic societies and asking Muslims whether they do things because Allah tells them. In my personal chats with Muslims all did things explicitly because of Islamic teachings.

If you don't accept that there's a self-evident connection between religious dogmas and religious behaviour, even in the face of history, current politics, and common sense; or if you feel the need to stretch your defense of Islamic teachings on GM to asking me to provide survey evidence that most Muslims say that their behaviour is affected by Islamic teaching, then I simply believe you are being quite unreasonable.

[Angrboda]

I agree that it's generally recognized that parents make important decisions for their child.  That doesn't extend to causing unjustified suffering through permanent body altering medically unnecessary surgery.

I am equally against religious parents tattooing their infants, for example.

My case that Islamic/Qur'anic teaching makes it more likely that Muslims will behave in accordance with that teaching I'd say was self-evident, though it could be backed up by the amazingly close correspondence  between Islamic teachings and behaviour by Muslims and Islamic societies and asking Muslims whether they do things because Allah tells them.  In my personal chats with Muslims all did things explicitly because of Islamic teachings.

If you don't accept that there's a self-evident connection between religious dogmas and religious behaviour, even in the face of history, current politics, and common sense; or if you feel the need to stretch your defense of Islamic teachings on GM to asking me to provide survey evidence that most Muslims say that their behaviour is affected by Islamic teaching, then I simply believe you are being quite unreasonable.

That's moving the goalposts. I didn't EVER argue that the behavior of Muslims wasn't influenced by Islamic teachings. So cut the shit or find someone else to talk to.

[FrustratedFool]

I believe I have accurately reflected your view as found in your posts over the past few pages.

If you agree that the behaviour of Muslims is influenced by Islamic teaching, then do you not also agree that having a belief in Islamic dogma X will make according behviour more likely?

Also, are you a Muslim or an adherent to some other religion? I'm interested as to what is motivating your obvious animus here as well as what makes you so emotional on this topic.