Palestine

[FrustratedFool]

I said they desired that.

Desiring is not a warcrime.

Also, even if they attempted it, wouldn't the method make a huge difference as to whether it was a warcrime or not?  I mean, if they just asked and all the Palestinians just agreed, that's not a crime, is it?

Like how we asked the natives to leave and they agreed?  Reality based conversations my guy.  No, it doesn't matter how someone warcrimes to the question of whether they did warcrime - and every war criminal has some sob story or pretense to decency in their act.  Like, yeah, we marched em all off, but I did give them my blanket!  Look, when me and my boys showed up they all peaceably agreed to go where we pointed with our rifles.  

That aside, I agree, they are willing to commit warcrimes they can get away with regardless.

Having the status quo doesn't result in a wider conflict (short term worse), nor allows for the formation of a powerful enemy neighbour (long term worse), I think.  So I can't see a better alternative.

Isn't the status quo what already lead to the escalation we're now discussing?

I just feel the need to circle back here.  You get that the status quo is to feed the islamists and starve the secularists while kettling the palestinians in, right?

Like how we asked the natives to leave and they agreed?  No.

Reality based conversations my guy. This means nothing.  Desiring X isn't a warcrime, nor are many ways of peacefully accomplishing X.  

No, it doesn't matter how someone warcrimes to the question of whether they did warcrime: I said how that accomplished X, where X isnt a warcrime.  You havent read me carefully.

 - and every war criminal has some sob story or pretense to decency in their act.  Irrelevant.

 Like, yeah, we marched em all off, but I did give them my blanket!  Look, when me and my boys showed up they all peaceably agreed to go where we pointed with our rifles.  Irrelevant.

Isn't the status quo what already lead to the escalation we're now discussing?  Or course, and I expect something like this will happen every few years.  But the escalation I was thinking of was something much bigger that would make things worse for me.

You get that the status quo is to feed the islamists and starve the secularists while kettling the palestinians in, right?  Yes.  It ferments Islamic hatred against Israel.  Trouble is, not only is that now baked into the cake (good behaviour now wont change the desire for revenge or remove the Islamic hate) but also it would have likely existed regardless (the Islamic ME states desire that Israel doesnt exist or occupy the land at all).

[The Grand Nudger]

Wasn't the whole point from hamas end to create that "much bigger" by goading isreal into doing exactly what it's doing?

When we posit that it would have likely existed regardless that does seem to fly in the face of the fact that the isreali government..per our agreed to status quo... had to starve the secularists..and feed the islamists...to effect this outcome. They didn't seem to think it would just happen - they feared precisely the opposite. They had to make it happen.

[FrustratedFool]

I could easily believe that was a motivation og hamas, yes. I think they miscalculated, and I hope their goal fails.

I dont understand your second point.

[The Grand Nudger]

You don't understand what we've already agreed to, that the status quo was for isreal to starve the secularists and feed the islamists, while kettling the palestinians?

Or you don't understand how actively supporting islamists over secularists lead to an attack on isreal?

[FrustratedFool]

I'm happy to accept Israel wanted the Gaza state to fail, and as a result.of their actions they increased the power of Hamas, and helped provoke the action that hamas carried out.

[The Grand Nudger]

Then the status quo..being that thing they just did which caused exactly the opposite of what you would like to see, is probably not the best..or least worse... course of action..according to your stated positions, right? The best or least worse course of action would be one that did not lead to the thing you wish to prevent. To wit, not what they did, that did what you want to avoid.

[FrustratedFool]

It isnt the exact opposite of what I want to see. Where have you got that from?

[The Grand Nudger]

It's a moving target...but, variously....

You've told us that what you wanted to see (or, if you prefer, your least worst scenario) was support for secularist elements over theocratic elements, but then on second thought maybe not that.

That you wanted to see (or, if you prefer, your least worst scenario) was an outcome where isreal pursued some status quo policy for the purposes of isreali security, but then on second thought maybe not that.

I'm not here to argue your desires. I'm asking you how the status quo policies that lead to this attack, which included support for theocratic elements and the delegitimization of secularist elements.... serves either of these interests..or..whichever one you come up with next. I'm sure the question will be evergreen.

[Aegon]

Looks like this was a 9/11-level intelligence failure for the Mosad. Of course, one can't help but entertain the conspiracy theory that Bibi let it happen as justification to level the Gaza strip, but... I'll reserve that judgment for the time being.

New York Times report says Israel knew about Hamas attack over a year in advance

Israel’s military was aware of Hamas ' plan to launch an attack on Israeli soil over a year before the devastating Oct. 7 operation that killed hundreds of people, The New York Times reported Friday.

It was the latest in a series of signs that top Israeli commanders either ignored or played down warnings that Hamas was plotting the attack, which triggered a war against the Islamic militant group that has devastated the Gaza Strip.

The document predicted that Hamas would bombard Israel with rockets, use drones to disable Israel’s security and surveillance abilities at the border wall, and take over southern communities and military bases. Another 2016 Israeli defense memo obtained by the Times said Hamas intended to take hostages back to Gaza.

The Oct. 7 attack — in which 1,200 people were killed and 240 people were abducted and taken to Gaza — would uncannily mirror the one outlined in the battle plan. But Israeli officials had brushed off the plan, the report said, dismissing it as “aspirational” rather than something that could practically take place, the report said.

[Leonardo17]

   If Israel is the more secular / westernized element here, I don’t think it’s seeing the bigger picture. Is it possible for a country to stand all on its own (even with US support) in a place where all its neighbors are F-up countries with authoritarian governments?
 

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   That’s the biggest error of Israel. It wanted to weaken the Palestinian independence movement by promoting Hamas.
 
   Also, I am not scapegoating anyone here. But the rise of political Islam (beginning in the 90’s) was also designed to weaken Soviet influence etc. The problem now is that you have almost no serious government in the Middle-East anymore.
 
   So how can any country stand all by itself in a place like that?
 
   Also: Israel did invade Lebanon in 2006. What Happened to Hezbollah? – It’s 10 times stronger now.
 

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   Final remark: in the 2010’s there were these videos which I found on Youtube. The fact is, the majority of both sides of the conflicts do not want conflict anymore. But minorities in both sides of the conflict are true haters of the other side and will do anything to create more conflict. See these images:
 
https://youtu.be/amy6ltNoDVw?t=2
 
https://youtu.be/7agK8MIJ3T0?t=1
 
https://youtu.be/7bE66jhM9SQ?t=1
 
https://youtu.be/mYjuUoEivbE
 

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And that’s not why I came here at all. I wanted to draw your attention to disinformation techniques that are being employed by Hamas.
 
It’s strange how nobody cares how untrue these images are and the more these are violent and untrue the more these images are circulating on Social Media.
 
If I was Elon Musk, I would simply block all AI generated content. This is getting more and more serious everyday:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/fake-...09360.html