Hello soulcalm17

[Ferrocyanide]

Btw, I appreciate you Ferrocyanide, for reviewing the verses one by one. That is good way. Then we can continue to talk a bit academically.
Later on insha Allah I will reply it one by one. It would not possible to me make it in one day, because I have to do my job daily in my office. So please wait.

I don’t mind. Take your time.

Also, you would have to explain what is in the Koran that makes it impossible for a human to write.
Is that your view of all religious texts?
What about other works of text form, such as the story of Superman?
What about scientific text?
What about music?
What about software?
What about short Youtube videos? Any videos?

Can you list ALL content that is made by the jewish? I understand that you want to include the Koran in that list.
You just need to mention what else. For now, you don’t have to substantiate it.

[Paleophyte]

About consciousness, why scientist not tried to put a camera in the womb of some animal, let's say elephant, and see how the consciousness happened for the first time in her baby?

Because consciousness doesn't show up on a camera? Seriously, why would you even try that?

Also, consciousness develops gradually. There's no instant during development in which an organism suddenly goes from insensate to fully aware. The process continues well after birth for humans and is the reason that newborns are largely screaming balls of instinct and passingly poor at holding lengthy discussions of a philosophical nature.

It is much simpler to take a fully conscious subject, pop them into an MRI imager or an EEG, and render them unconscious with an anaesthetic. Did it never occur to you to wonder how something that you think came from god can be taken away by nothing more than some simple chemicals? For that matter, you can take it away by very simple physical means (e.g.: a baseball bat to the head) but that risks permanent damage.

[soulcalm17]

God wants people to being true happy in their life, so that He gave us the revelation that's including story in it.

He cares about humans?

My reply:
Yes, of course he is. He has a plan. And he already decided that good people will go to jannah (paradise), while the bad people will go to hell.

If He didn’t care, he wouldn’t send the revelation that remind human to his decision. He will ignore it but still make the decision in afterlife that bad people go to hell. It would be not fair. That’s why He always show the right path to every person so that each person would not complain to Him in afterlife, like saying: why did you not give knowledge/enlightment about this before, so that I become true and good believer?
This reminding, like I remind you today, is the evidence that He is fair and actually want people to go to the paradise.

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The writing/speech style

I think you are talking about textual analysis. This is something that was used to figure out if different people wrote the Bible and how many people. It isn’t something that I am familiar with.
Mormons have recently invested a lot into this. There are researchers at Brigham Young University who work on this sort of thing. When I say recently, I mean around 2010 and to this date.
I imagine all the experts have concluded that Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon. By experts, I mean that they have a diploma and they are also mormons.


My Reply:
I looking at a glance to the book of Mormon. Easily concluded it was man made. Too many subject of “I” who is clear depicting the POV of that book, which is testimony of human.

Indeed, quite many religions use that kind of style. The writing of followers/disciples about religion that their accept from the Prophet, but with their thought also. That is the first problem generating deviation possibilities of religions. That case never happened in Islam. Because we are prohibited to adding our thoughts to the subject of revelations. We just wrote words by words the revelation coming from Prophet.

Qur’an’s quote:
…Who does more wrong than those who fabricate lies against Allah to mislead others without any knowledge? Surely Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (Al An’am 6:144)
Hadith’s quote:
…Whoever lies in my name deliberately, let his seat be prepared in hell… (Musnad Ahmad: 11711)

I’m not seeing anything special in those lines.
Which one of those is said by the jewish god and how do you know?

My Reply:
The first clearly come from other than Muhammad peace be upon him entity, which has no subject like “I”, or “my”. And in Quran, never the story events of Muhammad ﷺ mentioned by first subject like “I” or “my” that referring to Muhammad ﷺ.

The second one “my” is from Muhammad ﷺ. Clearly “my” is from the POV of human, which is Muhammad himself ﷺ.

From the example, we know that the Quran style is more complex, like a poem, but with deep meaning, than one in the hadith.

Your claim seems to be that humans are incapable of this: writing a poem, giving a meaning to text.
Yes, it is possible for a human to write 2 pieces of text: one piece contains a poem and the other does not.
This isn’t something that is out of the bounds of possibility.

My Reply:
So you still considered it as possibility. But the fact was abundant in history. That many words of Muhammad peace be upon him in hadists is very different with the Quran. Arabs people when facing two style of writing directly know that one is Muhammad’s direct speech while the other is divinity’s speech spoken by human.

We have possibilities. But we need observation to test the possibilities. Your possibility simply didn’t match with the fact that Muhammad is not a poet before. He never made poem by himself. And his style of words is very different with Quran.

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[soulcalm17]

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About that Surah At Tawba 9:43 comment:
I took a look starting at 9:1 to see what it is about.

Summary:
The muslims have entered into a treaty with the polytheists. From the tone of the text, I figure that the jewish god doesn’t approve.
The jewish god makes a threat to the polytheists. (And give good news ˹O Prophet˺ to the disbelievers of a painful punishment.)
The polytheists who have honored the treaty, honor the treaty with them.
Kill the polytheists who have not honored the treaty after the sacred months have past.
If they apologize and pay money, set them free.
If a polytheist asks for protection, give him protection and try to convert him to Islam.
9:8 Demonstrates paranoia. It states that if the polytheists army was superior, they would do damages to you. They are not good people.
There is some repetition.
The text encourages the muslim to fight the polytheists if they don’t honor the treaty. The text guarantees victory for the muslim.
9:16 It is some more encouragement to the muslims.
9:17 Fuck the Polytheists.
You have to maintain the church, you have to believe in the last day, you have to pray, you have to give money to the Islam organized religion, you have to only fear the jewish god.
With the jewish god, you get great stuff.
The jewish god has to be the most important thing to you. Money, family, friends, possessions should be secondary to you. This is a rule. if you don’t obey it, I will put you in hell.
9:25 There was a war. There were many muslims but they began to lose the war. The jewish god sent invisible people to fight and the muslim side won. Fuck the Polytheists.
9:28 Fuck the Polytheists. Don’t let them get close to my church.
9:29 Fight the polytheists, kill them, until they pay a tax.
Jews and Christians are worshiping false gods. Unbelievers have taken control of those religion. Those religions are crap.
There is some threat to rabbis and monks.
There is a line about warfare again.
It spends time again disapproving of that polytheists do and calls their deeds evil, which implies that they should be devalued as human beings.
9:38 This existence, this world is not important. The afterlife is important. To get the good stuff in the afterlife, get up and march forth to war in the name of the jewish god.
9:39 And if you decide that you are not going to march forth to war, then the jewish god will fuck you up. He will send you to hell (painful torment) and you will get replaced by some other people.
Something about Mohamed being in a cave. Fuck the Polytheists.
The text repeats itself. Again, it says that you must march forth in the army of the jewish god and go and kill the polytheists. This would include jews and christians.

Now comes the line that interests you:

Surah At Tawba 9:43
May Allah pardon you ˹O Prophet˺! Why did you give them permission ˹to stay behind˺ before those who told the truth were distinguished from those who were lying? Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day do not ask for exemption from striving with their wealth and their lives. And Allah has perfect knowledge of those who are mindful ˹of Him˺. No one would ask for exemption except those who have no faith in Allah or the Last Day, and whose hearts are in doubt, so they are torn by their doubts. Had they ˹really˺ intended to march forth, they would have made preparations for it. But Allah disliked that they should go, so He let them lag behind, and it was said ˹to them˺, “Stay with those ˹helpless˺ who remain behind.” Had they gone forth with you ˹believers˺, they would have been nothing but trouble for you, and would have scrambled around, seeking to spread discord in your midst. And some of you would have eagerly listened to them. And Allah has ˹perfect˺ knowledge of the wrongdoers. They had already sought to spread discord before1 and devised every ˹possible˺ plot against you ˹O Prophet˺, until the truth came and Allah’s Will prevailed—much to their dismay.

I am not seeing anything embarrassing in the text.

Am I reading the right text or not? This is the second time you give me a text and I don’t see anything embarrassing. Is it me? Am I misunderstanding something?

This muslim sect was about to go to war against the polytheists (jews and christians might be included or included in a later war).
Some of the muslim people did not want to go.
I don’t know what conversation they had with Mohamed but apparently Mohamed agreed to let them live.
The line at 9:43 shows that the jewish god does not agree with Mohamed’s decision but just a few lines later, the jewish god agrees with Mohamed.

I don’t get it. Can you explain the lines in your own words. I want to see how you understand it.

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My Reply:

This is the difference between the holy books of Islam and the books of other religions. The verses in the Quran are preserved, because these verses were initially accepted and memorized by Muhammad ﷺ and his companions. So even when translated into another language, we can still refer to the original language.

What you convey is a summary of your own point of view, which is of course filled with hate bias, so you use words like f**k. I'm guessing that shouldn't be allowed in the rules of this forum right?
Continue here:

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But that's okay, because everyone can easily see the translation of the Quran which is now spread worldwide and verify what you said.
If the original version of the Quran is lost, then what happened to other religions could happen. This deviation can be so radical that it adds to the object of worship as happened to Christians who worshiped Jesus.
Surah At Taubah actually explains the description of the war that occurred during the time of Rasulullah ﷺ. The verse I am discussing is about the Tabuk war. Before this war occurred, Muhammad peace be upon him received information that Heraclius, the high Roman emperor, was preparing troops to fight the Muslims, as revenge for the humiliation of Rome because they lost in the Battle of Mu'tah.

Heraclius prepared around 40,000 troops, consisting of Romans and allied Arab tribes. It was these troops who were predicted to come and attack Medina and the Muslims there, thus making the Prophet worried.
As anticipation, the Prophet decided to face them. So the Muslims left for Tabuk at 9 Hijriyah (9th year after the Muslims migrated to Medina, movement to Medina). This war lasted for 50 days, divided into 20 days for Muslims to be in Tabuk and 30 days for the round trip from Medina to Tabuk, when the summer was not over yet. The hot season temperatures at the beginning of the autumn season which reach very high points was a very tense, deadly season in the desert region. Apart from that, the journey from Medina to Syria, apart from being a long journey, was also very difficult. There needs to be tenacity, stock up on food and water.
In that condition, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, announced his intention to leave to face Rome to the Muslims. He called on all tribes to get ready with as large an army as possible. He also asked rich people to participate with their wealth and ability to mobilize people. In this way, he hoped that the strength of the Muslims would make the Romans nervous. The Roman army was famous for having large troops with complete weapons.

Hearing the Prophet's call for peace be upon him, there were two responses that emerged among Muslims. There were those who accept with a heart that is radiant with God's light and guidance, a heart that is already sparkling with the light of faith, and they no fear not anything else. However, there were also those who enter religion with hope and trepidation.

Meanwhile, the others still had heavy steps and began to make excuses, while whispering among themselves and mocking the Prophet Muhammad's invitation to them to face a battle far away, in the burning hot air. Those were the hypocrites who are discussed a lot in this letter. Hypocrites in Islam are people who convert to Islam, but their goal is only to obtain worldly pleasures. They even had the heart to collaborate with the enemy to destroy the Islamic forces. but they were actually afraid of facing war against Rome.

The line at 9:43 shows that Allah warn Muhammad peace be upon him, why did he give them permission (not to go to war) so that it was clear to Muhammad who were truly (impeded) and those who were lying?
That is, do not first give permission to any of them to stay in their place, so that you Muhammad know who was truthful and who was lying among them in stating their reasons. Because in fact they were still determined to stay where they were and not want to take part in the war, even though Muhammad didn’t give them permission to stay where they were.
However, the incident had already happened so that Allah forgave the Prophet Muhammad Sallallaahu Alaihi Wasallam. And that verse is to explain and unmask the characteristics of hypocrites. Hypocrites when they listen to the verses in Surah At Taubah certainly feel embarrassed beyond words because their characteristic were exposed.

So, the Prophet Muhammad was told to be firm by Allah against these hypocrites. They should not have been allowed not to participate, so that they would not easily fool the Prophet. From this it is clear that the Prophet also made mistakes, but he was corrected by entity outside him. If the prophet did not truly communicate with God, of course this verse would not have been revealed and conveyed to his people.
FYI, the At Taubah letter did not come down all at once at one time. Several verses have been revealed relating to war events other than the Tabuk war. For example, in the first verse, it was motivated by the enemies of Islam at that time, namely the Quraish polytheists, who violated the Hudaibiyah peace agreement in 6 Hijriyah. The ceasefire, which was planned to last 10 years, was violated in the 2nd year by a tribal group called the Bani Badr. Even though he had violated it, what did the Prophet Muhammad do? He did not directly fight the Bani Badr. But he, according to a revelation from God, waited 4 months for the opposing party to decide whether to surrender or continue fighting. In fact, in verse 3 of this surah, it is clearly stated that Allah gave them the opportunity to repent within the 4 month period. However, it turned out that after 4 months, the Mecca idolaters did not repent, so the Prophet attacked them.

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[soulcalm17]

Surah At Tawba 9:49
There are some of them who say, “Exempt me and do not expose me to temptation.”1 They have already fallen into temptation. And Hell will surely engulf the disbelievers. If a blessing befalls you ˹O Prophet˺, they grieve, but if a disaster befalls you, they say, “We took our precaution in advance,” and turn away, rejoicing. Say, “Nothing will ever befall us except what Allah has destined for us. He is our Protector.” So in Allah let the believers put their trust.

And the text continues. It essentially considers the muslims who wanted to stay behind at the camp as disbelievers, as fuckers, as fags, as bags of shit. They deserve hell.
It also says that if Mohamed fails to gain victory, these guys would say “Glad I didn’t go. Glad I’m safe.”

The lines above might be documenting actual events and the lines are obviously written after these events.
It might be that Mohamed won that war. i don’t know.
It looks like Mohamed is pissed off that some able body men decided to not risk their lives.

My Reply:

Verse 49 also explains the condition of hypocrites. The hypocrites mentioned, who did not take part in the war, deserved punishment. Because they weaken the Muslims. And the prophet Muhammad did win in that war. Win without spending any energy in battle. Because the Roman army was afraid and did not dare to face the Muslim troops. And the Muslim troops went home because they had no one to fight.
 
However, no. This verse did not come down after the war ended. This verse came down when Muhammad invited people to join the war. The verse states that the hypocrites, when the Muslim troops win in the war, they would be resentful (because they would not had spoil of war). However, if the Muslims lose the war, they will rejoice and say things like: I told you not to join the war. That is the trait of cowardice revealed by Allah in the Quran. And so that it becomes a lesson for Muslims not to follow their path.
Continue here:

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At Tahrim 66:1
O Prophet! Why do you prohibit yourself from what Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
The question is still: Why would he blame himslef in front of his companion?

I don’t know Mohamed personally and I don’t know his family members or any of his friends, so I can’t know definitely what happened a very long time ago.
Maybe he was unhappy with something that he did. He felt like confessing. He felt the need for help from the jewish god.
Maybe he wants to serve as a model, as a way to live for his followers.
Yes, sometimes guys like Mohamed server as teachers. They tell us directly how to live or gives examples from their lives.

My Reply:

It should be emphasized in this verse that Allah has previously explained what foods and drinks which are halal (permitted) to eat, and which are haram (prohibited) to consume. This verse was revealed in connection with an event experienced by the Prophet Muhammad Shallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. At that time the Prophet was at the house of his wife, Saudah and drink honey.
This incident seems to be the cause of jealousy of the prophet's other wives, named Aisyah and Hafsah. When the Prophet Muhammad went to Aisyah's house, Aisyah suddenly said that the Prophet's mouth smelled bad. Likewise, when the Prophet went to Hafsah's house. Hafsah said that the Prophet's mouth smelled bad.
The Prophet Muhammad, who heard the confessions of his two wives, then concluded that it was because he drank honey while at Sauda's house. On that basis, in order to please his two wives, the Messenger of Allah made honey forbidden to him forever.
This is a mistake. So, God sent down this At Tahrim letter to warn the Prophet that what he was doing was wrong. Honey is halal for humans. And no one has the right to forbid it, except God himself. God also told the Prophet to withdraw his words.
What is underlined in the revelation of this verse is that it is impossible for the Prophet to cancel his own words if he did not receive a revelation from God. Logically, he must have kept his words and not changed them to please his wife.

END OF BLOCK OF TEXT


START OF BLOCK OF TEXT

Surah Ar Ruum 30:2-4
The Romans have been defeated in a nearby land.1 Yet following their defeat, they will triumph within three to nine years.1 The ˹whole˺ matter rests with Allah before and after ˹victory˺. And on that day the believers will rejoice at the victory willed by Allah. He gives victory to whoever He wills. For He is the Almighty, Most Merciful.

So, the prophecy is that in 3 to 9 years, the Romans will win.
Sorry, I have no idea what this is about. Why does it say 3 to 9? Why can’t it give a specific time? What year is it. Where? With who are they at war? At what date and time was Surah Ar Ruum 30:2-4 written?


My Reply:
First of all, don't get wrong. The Al-Quran was revealed by the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad, then the Prophet Muhammad memorized it. Then the Prophet Muhammad spoke this to his followers. Then his followers memorized it. Indeed, when the Prophet Muhammad lived, there was no canonical Al-Quran written in full, because at that time, companions already memorize all the revelations given. So what you know from history is that the Quran was only collected during Uthman's caliphate, which was true. But that is only in written form. As for the oral tradition, the Quran already exists and has not changed even when it was written down during the time of Caliph Uthman. Thus, the content, word for word, was revealed before they were collected in a book called a mushaf.

As for the words three to nine years, the Arabic language actually says that to refer to the term several years (فِي بِضْعِ سِنِينَ "fii bid'i siniin"). This letter first came down in 615 AD, just when Roman was defeated. So the prediction was correct.

In those days the Byzantine occupied territories adjacent to Arabia were Jordan, Syria and Palestine, and in these territories the Romans were completely overpowered by the Persians in 615 A.D. And proved that later in 624 A.D, The Romans defeating Persians by destroyed Clorumia, the birthplace of Zoroaster, and ravaged the principal fire temple of Persian.

It isn’t clear in which days it is talking about. The text is not dated.
No mention of countries is made. No mention of cities is made. No mention of commanders, generals, leaders.
No mention of who the enemy is.
Besides, 615 and 624 are inferior numbers to 632, which is when Mohamed was dead and it is after that that some guys wrote the Koran. So we don’t know if previous to 615, Mohamed said those lines.

Surah Al Fath, 48:27
“Indeed, Allah will fulfil His Messenger’s vision in all truth: Allah willing, you will surely enter the Sacred Mosque, in security—some with heads shaved and others with hair shortened—without fear. He knew what you did not know, so He first granted you the triumph at hand”.

Those lines were written after 632, which is when Mohamed was dead and it is after that that some guys wrote the Koran.
In other words, they went into some sacred church, which I don’t know which one they are talking about. There was only 1 sacred church in Saudi Arabia?
You said that in 630, Mohamed and friends came to Mecca and went into some sacred church.
The text does not state 630 and it does not state who will enter the sacred church. In other words, if they had failed to enter in 630, there is no expiration date. Muslims could have succeeded in entering he sacred church in the year 2010 and you would say that the prophecy has been fulfilled.
It is similar in the case of Israel. The claim is that it was prophecized that jews would get back Israel and they did in 1948.

How about if Mohamed predicts in 630 that in the 19 th century, an X number of elements would be discovered and that a certain person, I guess Mendelev would work on the periodic table of elements?
How about if Mohamed predicts in 630 that a very powerful weapon, called a nuclear weapon would be developed during the 193x?
It need not be something of a scientific nature. Mohamed could have drawn a map of New York, showed all the street names, all the bridges with names, a list of mayors.
Now that would be impressive.

My Reply:

Again, you conclude wrongly. The verse above was first revealed in 615 AD. As for the matter of the Quran being written after the Prophet Muhammad, it has nothing to do with this incident. Remember, the Quran after the death of the Prophet was only written. As for orally, the Quran has been spread and memorized by many companions before. And there was not even slight change between the Al-Quran delivered orally and the writing written in the Al-Quran mushaf.
 
As for the question of why the name of the country does not appear, the names of generals and leaders. So I can say here that the Quran is not a historical notebook written scientifically. No, that's not why the Quran was revealed. He was revealed to give wisdom and moral lessons to humans. Occasionally he reveals historical facts, but for humans to reflect on the lessons contained therein.

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[soulcalm17]

[quote pid='2204525' dateline='1721196625']

Surah Al Fath, 48:27
“Indeed, Allah will fulfil His Messenger’s vision in all truth: Allah willing, you will surely enter the Sacred Mosque, in security—some with heads shaved and others with hair shortened—without fear. He knew what you did not know, so He first granted you the triumph at hand”.

Those lines were written after 632, which is when Mohamed was dead and it is after that that some guys wrote the Koran.
In other words, they went into some sacred church, which I don’t know which one they are talking about. There was only 1 sacred church in Saudi Arabia?
You said that in 630, Mohamed and friends came to Mecca and went into some sacred church.
The text does not state 630 and it does not state who will enter the sacred church. In other words, if they had failed to enter in 630, there is no expiration date. Muslims could have succeeded in entering he sacred church in the year 2010 and you would say that the prophecy has been fulfilled.
It is similar in the case of Israel. The claim is that it was prophecized that jews would get back Israel and they did in 1948.

How about if Mohamed predicts in 630 that in the 19 th century, an X number of elements would be discovered and that a certain person, I guess Mendelev would work on the periodic table of elements?
How about if Mohamed predicts in 630 that a very powerful weapon, called a nuclear weapon would be developed during the 193x?
It need not be something of a scientific nature. Mohamed could have drawn a map of New York, showed all the street names, all the bridges with names, a list of mayors.
Now that would be impressive.

Sorry, I'm not skillful to make quote and hide content. I need to repeat about Al Fath, 48:27, and the rest is continuation of content
My Reply:
Firstly, your assumption that the Prophet Muhammad entered a church is a mistake. In the text, it is not written church, but mosque. The mosque referred to in this verse is the Grand Mosque (Masjidil Haram), which is now a pilgrimage destination. Again, you discuss the issue of writing the Quran, which I think I explained in the previous reply. Likewise regarding the issue of year details and other historical details.

If you want the Prophet Muhammad to predict the discovery of chemical elements, nuclear weapons, maps of New York, etc. My question is, why was those said at that time? People at that time didn’t need those complete information, and it had nothing to do with their daily needs. I have explained to you that the verses in the Quran are not empty verses without useful meaning for humans. So whatever information is included in the Quran, God must also ask humans to reflect on these verses and take lessons from them.

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For this one
Surah Kahfi 18:23-24
I’m guessing you are referring to this text:
Source:
https://quran.com/18

And never say of anything, “I will definitely do this tomorrow,” without adding, “if Allah so wills!” But if you forget, then remember your Lord, and say, “I trust my Lord will guide me to what is more right than this.” They had remained in their cave for three hundred years, adding nine.1

1.   The prophet was asked by some jewish about the story about “people in the cave”. The prophet said that he would answer him tomorrow expecting the revelation come but without saying insha Allah (If Allah willing). So the revelation delayed. The delaying was not short, but in 15 days, when finally the answer come as Surah Kahfi (18) :23-24.

Ok, some guys had remained in a cave for 300 y or 309 y.
I did not see anything about a revelation and 15 days but I guess the objective here is for me to take a guess.
Like I said, I don’t know Mohamed and what is going on in his head. Perhaps he needed time to meditate or he wanted to wait for some vision.
I am not seeing solid evidence of anything supernatural or anything that requires a god or alien powers.

My Reply:
No, he didn't need to meditate or something. The fact is Muhammad was just waiting for the revelation, but it didn't come the next day. This is also proof that the Prophet Muhammad could not arrange events according to his own plans. If the Prophet was a deceiver, he could have said what he promised in the next day. He could tell wrong stories about the people in the cave. And he insisted that his opinion was correct, because he was a prophet.

But in fact it's not. The Prophet continued to wait for the revelation to come down, and did not dare to say anything wrong about the story of the young man in the cave.

The question is, if Muhammad peace be upon him just crafted the Quran by himself, why would he wait for so long to give an answer to his people? For the first case, he could easily answer the next day so that he can keep his promise. For second case, he could easily make “the verses that clear his wife name” in order that people not give bad opinion on him.

He could have waited for the next day or waited 15 days or maybe 30 days. I think it is fine. If it works, if the believers are impressed, then the religion works.
Like I said, I don’t know Mohamed and what is going on in his head. Perhaps he needed time to meditate or he wanted to wait for some vision.
I am not seeing solid evidence of anything supernatural or anything that requires a god or alien powers.
Am am not seeing anything impossible for a human to do.
It is possible that the alien is real and the alien was busy and he said, ok, give me 15 days and I will tell them what to do.
It is possible that the alien is just a vision that Mohamed is having and it took time for something to pop up in his mind.
I really don’t know what the case is.

The most important thing is for me to understand how your logic works and I am slowly learning how it works as long as you describe that such things are a mystery to you.

The rest of the stuff is probably of a similar concept so I am going to skip and jump to point F.

f.    Personal information of Prophet
There is no personal information of the Prophet in The Quran. The Muhammad’s name just mention in 4 times in the Quran, which is fewer than other mentions of other prophets. For example Moses 134 times in 34 surahs, as well as Jesus mentioned dozens of times. So if Muhammad had made the Quran himself, wouldn’t he have given himself more credit or at least talked about his struggle more often?

Mohamed is a mystery to you. You don’t understand why he did what he did. Maybe you should accept that you don’t know him personally. You should accept that you aren’t in his brain and you don’t know what operation are happening in his computer (brain). And I don’t know either.
I have seen all sorts of people in this world. There are a lot of bizarre people.
To me, it doesn’t seem like a huge mystery, so huge that I am going to think that a super intelligent alien wrote the Koran.

It is a mystery how Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale wrote the Back to the Future story. Probably they typed it on a typewriter? Is that it? If I get a typewriter, would I produce a superb story?
How did Mozart compose such beautiful music? Was it his pen and paper? Can I get the same tools?
How does electricity work? What is light?

There are a lot of mysteries. Should we claim that it is some alien god thing behind these things, whenever we encounter a mystery, whenever we encounter something that doesn’t match normal expectations?

My Reply:
Well, I even claim that both mysterious and normal thing, should be God behind all those things. That is because simple thing: All processed things need a processor. All created things, need a creator. There should be prime mover and first cause of all things logically.
 
For some people have a good talent, yeah God must give them that talent. And for the example that you give, everyone can learn from it, and "can do the same thing" with it. If someone knows and analyzes the Back of Future Story, they can make a different story with the same structure of that story, it might be even better. The same thing goes with Mozart's music.
But for the Al Quran, about 1400 years continue, but no one can produce the book with the same composition like the Quran. FYI, there were many poets in Arabic who could do the best thing with Arabic. But none of them equalize the Quran.
And no, Muhammad peace be upon him not a mystery to me, nor to all Muslims. His track record and his story were very clear to reach. And very clear to understand. If you do research on Islam, you will find bulk of the history of Muhammad, even with his day to day activities that are recorded by his companions. And the method to get the information from the prophet is very rigorous in Islam. Our scholars assess the chain of the narrator of ahadith step by step (about the honesty of the narrators, their memorizing quality, etc.) and even present the biography of all the chain of narrators. Not a single information of hadith being easily accepted before scholars assess the narrators. And they will classify those hadiths in general as valid (sahih) or not valid (maudhu) or weak (dhaif). Many non-Muslim researchers are amazed with our scholars working on it.

2.  The Prophet used previous books to make Quran

You are claiming that Mohamed did not know how to read. I don’t know if this claim is true. It seems to be popular among believers to use this kind of argument.
Mormon believers tell me that their Joseph Smith was not educated and therefore, he could not be the author of the Book of Mormon.
Christians tell me that the students or whatever of Jesus were not intelligent, they were fisherman, did not know how to read and write and then, magic happening and suddenly, they could speak all languages and write these stories.

Too bad there aren’t reputable sources, reputable journalists, school papers that can back up these claims.

Note that I am not saying that Mohamed read a book.

My reply:
The fact that Muhammad could not read and write is widely accepted, both by Muslims and non-Muslim researchers. The list of non-Muslim researchers who admit that the Prophet Muhammad could not read and write includes: Rainer Maria Rilke (Germany), Annemarie Schimmel (Germany), Dr. Shaberk (Austria), Professor TVN Persaud (Canada), Professor Joe Leigh Simpson (USA), and many more..

3.  The Prophet used someone’s help
 
Was it any Jew or Christian that help Muhammad to create the Quran? Well, in the authentic (shahih) hadith, we will only find single hadith about the encounter between The Prophet and someone called Waraqa bin Naufal (a Christian). However The Prophet met Waraqah bin Naufal after the revelation came to him, not before revelation. Besides, in the hadith, Waraqah even testifies that Muhammad peace be upon him was the Prophet. So how could he have been the one who would help him to write the Quran?
Even if it wasn’t Waraqah and it was other Christian or Jew who would help The Prophet to write The Quran, how could they allow him to write verses like these:
a.   They are surely infidels who say “God is The Christ son of Mary” (Al Maidah, 5:72)
b.   You will be find the Jews and idolaters most excessive in hatred of those who believe (Al Maidah, 5:82)
How can it make sense that Jew or Christian would help The Prophet write something like that?

I don’t think a jew or christian helped Mohamed create the Koran.
According to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

Thus, a group of scribes, most importantly Zayd, collected the verses and produced a hand-written manuscript of the complete book.

The Prophet and someone called Waraqa bin Naufal (a Christian). However The Prophet met Waraqah bin Naufal after the revelation came to him, not before revelation. Besides, in the hadith, Waraqah even testifies that Muhammad peace be upon him was the Prophet. So how could he have been the one who would help him to write the Quran?

It is possible that not everything is recorded in the Koran and related written material.
Waraqah can testify all he likes. I understand that he was impressed with Mohamed and that is fine, but I don’t place much value into such testimony, specially with matters of religion.
We need modern critics to question Mohamed. Better yet, give me 2 prophets and we can place them in 2 separate rooms and we can question them. if the jewish go is really telecommunicating with these 2, we would be able to find out.

The most likely explanation is that christians were going from city to city, land to land, country to country and spreading their religion. Some would listen and some would not. That is how christianity spread in the first few centuries.
When such a naturalistic and obvious explanation is present, I have no need to believe in magical invisible alien people who don’t show themselves.

But thank you for considering the possibility of a jew or christian that sat with Mohamed and showed him some text and helped Mohamed write the Koran. At least you are considering a few. I don’t know why you are avoiding the obvious possibilities.

My Reply:
I have already told you that the Prophet Muhammad only met Waraqah bin Naufal during the prophetic period. It was only a one-time meeting and for a short time. There has never been a historical record that states that the Prophet Muhammad studied regularly with a particular Christian priest.
So, you want to believe that God exists, only if you see it with your own eyes? OK, now I understand your position. I already stated previously that God is outside of universe, and our eyes has limitation. So he couldn’t possibly be seen.
However, I remind you, later in the afterlife, you will know that God exists. And if you don't repent and don't accept the truth, your knowledge of God is no longer useful, and you will get justice from God, He will punish you.

4.  The Prophet got it from satan
Well, I guess you denied this possibility. Because you didn’t believe the satan existence. But I just give reason that it would impossible if it come from satan:
a.   We as a muslim are taught to seek refuge from satan before starting to recite Al Quran
“O, when you recite The Quran, seek refuge in God from Satan the execrable” (An Nahl 16:98)
b.   Numerous verses in the Quran declaring satans as the mortal foe of humans

I understand why christians would make such a claim. Islam seems like a foreign religion. It comes from an arab. Also, christianity already exists, which is the true religion from their POV, so when a new religion gets invented, it must obviously be from Satan or something.
If there is a problem with the Bible, the most obvious solution would be for the jewish god to correct the Bible immediately instead of waiting 600 y. This is quite obvious to me.

I suppose it is possible that it is the work of Satan and that he wants you to worship some other god instead of worshiping the jewish god. How can we be sure that the god of the Koran is the same as the god of the jews?

My Reply:
Yes, God could have corrected people's understanding of the Bible right when the deviation occurred. However, in reality, He did not. He has great wisdom regarding this matter. God is a living entity with absolute will. Nothing could influence him.

If God always corrects people's mistakes at a moment's notice, then His initial goal of creating temporary life in this world (where there is life and there is death) will not be realized. God has previously said that He wants to put humans into a state of trial. So that God will see, when the deviations occured, which humans use their reason and can still search for the truth. Where are the people who truly do good and still believe in God's justice. Later in the afterlife, God will reward each soul individually with justice. In the afterlife, God will not hold any more tests. Because it's time to receive the results. At that time, God will appear to all believers, as you now expected. Non-believers will surely realize this too. However, the difference is that they are filled with regret because they previously did not believe.

How could it be possible that satan helped the Prophet to write verses that cursing himself and declaring him as the enemy. And why would satan tell his plan to tempt humans and expose himself like that. Therefore it is impossible for satan to have held the Prophet write The Quran.

It depends on how stupid Satan is.
If Satan is absolutely stupid, has very little knowledge of humans, he would show up and say “Hey, I am Satan, I am evil, worship me.”

A more clever Satan would say “Hey, I am god. Worship me. Don’t worship Satan. Look over there, that guy is Satan!”
BTW, do you have a picture of your god and Satan?

My Reply:
Satan is described in the Quran as bad behavior. First on the human creation, he was envy. And later on he and his descendants provoke humankind to do the bad thing.
The good things and bad things are very clearly explained and understandable by humans. So it would be very clear that humans know who are the true satans by their behavior.
 
Indicate of satan: invite people to do damage to themselves, or damage the environment. Influencing people to worship other than true God, or even to not admit that there was no God.
 
Indicate of God: invite people to do good things for themselves and the environment. Influencing people to worship only him so that the benefits turn back to the people themselves.
 
Rationally, we cannot see the God, because he is out of the universe. So, we don't have a picture of him. About satans, we also don't need to picture them. They are also unseen but still the creatures.

Now I would ask you, Quran is exist. It is one of the phenomena of the nature in universe, as well as others. It is impossible being made by human. Then, how could you explain how it came into existence? Was it like the causing of life, which is science has not now yet? Or just Occam Razor, that it just the way it did. No more explanation.

Yes, in the sciences, we go with Occam’s Razor. There is a reason why we go with Occam’s Razor? Do you know why?

You are asking me if it is possible that it is man made? Sure, why not.
I didn’t see anything extraordinarily intelligent in the Koran so far. I have read 2 pages.
I have read all the Bible. Nothing extraordinarily intelligent. It looks like the product from primitive humans.
There are no valuable predictions in the Bible. it is just vagueries.

My Reply:
It’s ok from your POV, that it is possible man made. But many experts in Islamic and Quran studies said that it is seemingly impossible. Like a magic. Professor Angelika Neuwirth was one of the example I already post in my previous post.

Was it like the causing of life, which is science has not now yet?

Well, explain to me how it rains.

My Reply:
I still didn’t get your means. Explain about rains? Or about the way the revelation was revealed?

That it was God who communicate to human. He is unseen

So, why doesn’t he communicate with people right now?

My Reply:
Depend on what communicate you would define. Many muslims communicate with God everyday with their prayer. They performing salah, make an invoke to God. They got their answer from God, their problem in their life solved. They do communicate with God.
If communicate means the direct revelations like the time of the prophets, of course it wouldn’t happen. It’s because God already decided that Prophet Muhammad was the last of His messenger.

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[/quote]

[soulcalm17]

About consciousness, why scientist not tried to put a camera in the womb of some animal, let's say elephant, and see how the consciousness happened for the first time in her baby?

Because consciousness doesn't show up on a camera? Seriously, why would you even try that?

Also, consciousness develops gradually. There's no instant during development in which an organism suddenly goes from insensate to fully aware. The process continues well after birth for humans and is the reason that newborns are largely screaming balls of instinct and passingly poor at holding lengthy discussions of a philosophical nature.

It is much simpler to take a fully conscious subject, pop them into an MRI imager or an EEG, and render them unconscious with an anaesthetic. Did it never occur to you to wonder how something that you think came from god can be taken away by nothing more than some simple chemicals? For that matter, you can take it away by very simple physical means (e.g.: a baseball bat to the head) but that risks permanent damage.

"Because consciousness doesn't show up on a camera? Seriously, why would you even try that?"

That is my serious question actually. I also want to know what are the effect of "the event of soul being blown to the physics of organism". 
Was it electricity? Or anything else.

Look that I can still know that it actually soul that blown by God. But it's okay to know how God's works on it.

"It is much simpler to take a fully conscious subject, pop them into an MRI imager or an EEG, and render them unconscious with an anaesthetic"

That's might be work on disappearing consciousness, but the organism still alive with their heart beating. So, what is life actually?

[Silver]

Life is mere biology.

[The Grand Nudger]

Apparently it's something that megapixies blow.

[Paleophyte]

"Because consciousness doesn't show up on a camera? Seriously, why would you even try that?"

That is my serious question actually. I also want to know what are the effect of "the event of soul being blown to the physics of organism". 
Was it electricity? Or anything else.

None whatsoever. Science has never detected a soul and I fully expect that it never will. And for exactly the same reason that it hasn't detected fairies, dragons or unicorns.

"It is much simpler to take a fully conscious subject, pop them into an MRI imager or an EEG, and render them unconscious with an anaesthetic"

That's might be work on disappearing consciousness, but the organism still alive with their heart beating. So, what is life actually?

Shifting goalposts much? We were talking about consciousness not simply life. That's a whole other discussion. If you want you can leave the subject in the machine and turn the anaesthetic off. They'll regain consciousness and you can watch the effects. Just don't expect a soul.