Evolution and Biological Testing

[Zen Badger]

You made the spurious claim that the ruling elite use "social darwinism" to control the masses.

I made the point that since Darwins theory is only 150 years old that is not correct, that in fact the elite use religion to control the population.

And where in the koran does it say that islam is against the elite?

[KichigaiNeko]

I will just say this.... any form of monarchy is against this religion.

Those kings/queens you see ruling most of the arab nations are not following this religion.

The revolutions going on right now is a start in changing that perception.

Since Darwins theory is only 150 years old what did the ruling classes use for thousands of years beforehand?

That's right ... religion, i.e "the divine right of kings" and all of the rest of the religious bullshit that was used to justify their position of control.

So don't go there Rulloh, it's a fast road to nowhere on this forum.

Sorry ruhollah ...your ruling elite ARE following your precious religion as laid down by your precious prophet and maintained by his precious family...

As I understand it ...it is all there in your precious book. The "no-true-Scotsman' ploy won't work.

I would anticipate more suicides if I were you... just to escape the cognitive incongruences.... good luck with the revolution mate and hope to your prophet that america doesn't come and 'save' you

[ruhollah]

Social Darwinism/Euginics has played a large role in the west to control the masses:
read the history of it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
The Nazis are the best known example of using it to control the masses. Ask any WW2 historian.

Now you claim that the way this religion is conducted resembles that a of a monarchy/dictatorship government. This may have happened in the past, and many experts make it clear that kind of rule is incorrect! There are millions of sites that discuss why monarchy is not allowed in this religion.

The consensus is that it is not the correct way to govern. The correct way is a free republic, with decentralized democratic governments. People having the freedom to move to communities that consist of laws/ideals they are attracted to. The religion is used as moral guideline in your day-to-day interactions.

You made the spurious claim that the ruling elite use "social darwinism" to control the masses.

I made the point that since Darwins theory is only 150 years old that is not correct, that in fact the elite use religion to control the population.

And where in the koran does it say that islam is against the elite?

[Welsh cake]

Contrary to popular belief, this religion doesn't deny evolution.

Contrary to your belief, no one said it does. This is irrelevant in any case.

Where the line is drawn is when scientist and sociologist apply these theories to human society. Social Darwinism is a complete opposite of the principles of this relgion.

Which begs the question: What are your objections with Sociology and social sciences in general?

The problem with social Darwinism is that the powerful upper class can use these theories to justify that helping the poor and weak is a lost cause.

This has nothing to do with concepts or movements related to evolutionary theory.

Thread name FAIL.

[ruhollah]

1. I made this thread to make it clear what the religions stance is towards evolutionary theories.

2. As far as this thread is concerned, I am making it clear that applying evolutionary theories in the social settings is wrong. I.E. EUGENICS....

However since you asked... I think its unfortunate that many of today's sociology texts are spreading the Marxist ideology.

1. Contrary to your belief, no one said it does. This is irrelevant in any case.


2. Which begs the question: What are your objections with Sociology and social sciences in general?

[Zen Badger]

Social Darwinism/Euginics has played a large role in the west to control the masses:
read the history of it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
The Nazis are the best known example of using it to control the masses. Ask any WW2 historian.

Tsk,tsk,tsk.... I am a WW2 historian, and Hitler did everything in the name of god, not evolution. Prove otherwise or STFU.
Any other examples you wish to quote?

Now you claim that the way this religion is conducted resembles that a of a monarchy/dictatorship government.

I haven't actually made that claim, i was talking about religion in general.

This may have happened in the past, and many experts make it clear that kind of rule is incorrect! There are millions of sites that discuss why monarchy is not allowed in this religion.

But I asked where in the koran does it say that.

The consensus is that it is not the correct way to govern. The correct way is a free republic, with decentralized democratic governments. People having the freedom to move to communities that consist of laws/ideals they are attracted to. The religion is used as moral guideline in your day-to-day interactions.

And in which muslim theocracy does this happen??

[ruhollah]

Tsk,tsk,tsk.... I am a WW2 historian, and Hitler did everything in the name of god, not evolution. Prove otherwise or STFU.
Any other examples you wish to quote?

Books

* Aly, G. (1994). Cleansing the Fatherland: Nazi Medicine and Racial Hygiene. The Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0-8018-4824-5
* Baer, E. et al. (2003). Experience and Expression: Women, the Nazis, and the Holocaust. Wayne State University Press. ISBN 0814330630
* Baumslag, N. (2005). Murderous Medicine: Nazi Doctors, Human Experimentation, and Typhus. Praeger Publishers. ISBN 0-275-98312-9
* Biesold, H. (1999). Crying Hands: Eugenics and Deaf People in Nazi Germany. Washington, D.C.: Gallaudet University Press. ISBN 1-56368-255-9
* Burleigh, M. (1991). The Racial State: Germany 1933-1945. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-39802-9
* Burleigh, M. (1994). Death and Deliverance: 'Euthanasia' in Germany, c.1900 to 1945. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-41613-2
* Caplan, A. (1992). When Medicine Went Mad: Bioethics and the Holocaust. Totowa, New Jersey: Humana Press. ISBN 0896032353
* Ehrenreich, Eric. The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution. Bloomington, Indiana: Indiana University Press, 2007. ISBN 978-0-253-34945-3
* Evans, Suzanne E., Forgotten Crimes: The Holocaust and People with Disabilities. Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2004. ISBN 1-56663-565-9
* Friedlander, H. (1995). The Origins of Nazi Genocide. From Euthanasia to the Final Solution. University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 0-8078-2208-6
* Gallagher, G. (1995). By Trust Betrayed: Patients, Physicians, and the License to Kill in the Third Reich. Arlington, Virginia: Vandamere Press. ISBN 0-918339-36-7
* Glass, J. (1999). Life Unworthy of Life: Racial Phobia and Mass Murder in Hitler's Germany Basic Books. ISBN 0465098460
* Kater, M. (1989). Doctors Under Hitler. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 0807818429
* Kuhl, S. (2002). The Nazi Connection: Eugenics, American Racism, and German National Socialism. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195149785
* Kuntz, D. (2006). Deadly Medicine: Creating the Master Race. The University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 0-8078-2916-1
* Lifton, R. (1986). THE NAZI DOCTORS: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide. Basic Books. ISBN 0-465-04905-2
* McFarland-Icke, B. (1999). Nurses in Nazi Germany: Moral Choice in History. Princeton University Press. ISBN 0691006652
* Müller-Hill, B. (1998). Murderous Science: Elimination by Scientific Selection of Jews, Gypsies, and Others in Germany, 1933-1945. Plainview, New York: Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press. ISBN 0879695315
* Nicosia, F. et al. (2002). Medicine and Medical Ethics in Nazi Germany: Origins, Practices, Legacies. Berghahn Books. ISBN 157181387X
* Proctor, R. (2003). Racial Hygiene: Medicine Under the Nazis. Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-74578-7
* Ryan, Donna F., et al. (2002). Deaf People in Hitler's Europe. Washington, D.C.: Gallaudet University Press, ISBN 1-56368-132-3
* Schafft, G. (2004). From Racism to Genocide: Anthropology in the Third Reich. University of Illinois Press. ISBN 0252029305
* Spitz, V. (2005). Doctors from Hell: The Horrific Account of Nazi Experiments on Humans. Sentient Publications. ISBN 1-59181-032-9
* Weikart, R. (2006). From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, And Racism in Germany. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 1-4039-7201-X
* Weindling, P.J. (2005). Nazi Medicine and the Nuremberg Trials: From Medical War Crimes to Informed Consent. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 1-4039-3911-X
* Weindling, P.J. (1989). Health, Race and German Politics between National Unification and Nazism, 1870-1945. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-42397-X

[edit] Academic articles

* Bachrach, S. (2004). "In the name of public health — Nazi racial hygiene". New England Journal of Medicine, 29 July 2004; 351: 417–420.
* Biddiss M. (1997). "Disease and dictatorship: the case of Hitler's Reich" Journal of Royal Society of Medicine, 1997 Jun; 90(6): 342-6.
* Cranach, M. (2003). "The killing of psychiatric patients in Nazi Germany between 1939-1945". The Israel Journal of Psychiatry and Related Sciences, 2003; 40(1): 8-18; discussion 19-28.
* Lerner, B. (1995). "Medicine and the Holocaust: Learning More of the Lessons" Annals of Internal Medicine, 15 May 1995; 122: 10: 793–794.
* Martin III, Matthew D., "The Dysfunctional Progeny of Eugenics: Autonomy Gone AWOL", Cardozo Journal of International Law, Vol. 15, No. 2, Fall 2007, pp. 371–421, ISSN 1069-3181.
* O'Mathúna, D. (2006). "Human dignity in the Nazi era: implications for contemporary bioethics". BioMed Central, 2006 Mar 14;7(1):E2.
* Sofair, A. (2000). "Eugenic sterilization and a qualified Nazi analogy: the United States and Germany, 1930-1945". National Center for Biotechnology Information 2000 Feb 15; 132(4): 312-9.
* Strous, R. D. (2006). "Nazi Euthanasia of the Mentally Ill at Hadamar". American Journal of Psychiatry, January 2006; 163: 27.
* Weigmann, K. (2001). "The role of biologists in Nazi atrocities: lessons for today’s scientists". European Molecular Biology Organization, 15 October 2001; 2(10): 871–875.
* "Eugenical Sterilization in Germany" Eugenical News 1933, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory; vol.18:5.

And in which muslim theocracy does this happen??

Unfortunately nowhere at the moment. Hopefully it will happen someday.....
Education is key for it to happen, and the internet can help us with that.

[Darwinian]

Contrary to popular belief, this religion doesn't deny evolution. Furthermore this religion doesn't ban controversial scientific experiments.

In fact, stem cell research is getting tremendous funding in Iran!

Where the line is drawn is when scientist and sociologist apply these theories to human society. Social Darwinism is a complete opposite of the principles of this relgion.

The problem with social Darwinism is that the powerful upper class can use these theories to justify that helping the poor and weak is a lost cause. They can claim that evolution bypassed the lower class with not giving them the stronger genes. This kind of rational has dire consequences in society.

Are you the Iranian propaganda minister by any chance?

[Zen Badger]

Tsk,tsk,tsk.... I am a WW2 historian, and Hitler did everything in the name of god, not evolution. Prove otherwise or STFU.
Any other examples you wish to quote?

---

Books

* Aly, G. (1994). Cleansing the Fatherland: Nazi Medicine and Racial Hygiene. The Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0-8018-4824-5
* Baer, E. et al. (2003). Experience and Expression: Women, the Nazis, and the Holocaust. Wayne State University Press. ISBN 0814330630
* Baumslag, N. (2005). Murderous Medicine: Nazi Doctors, Human Experimentation, and Typhus. Praeger Publishers. ISBN 0-275-98312-9
* Biesold, H. (1999). Crying Hands: Eugenics and Deaf People in Nazi Germany. Washington, D.C.: Gallaudet University Press. ISBN 1-56368-255-9
* Burleigh, M. (1991). The Racial State: Germany 1933-1945. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-39802-9
* Burleigh, M. (1994). Death and Deliverance: 'Euthanasia' in Germany, c.1900 to 1945. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-41613-2
* Caplan, A. (1992). When Medicine Went Mad: Bioethics and the Holocaust. Totowa, New Jersey: Humana Press. ISBN 0896032353
* Ehrenreich, Eric. The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution. Bloomington, Indiana: Indiana University Press, 2007. ISBN 978-0-253-34945-3
* Evans, Suzanne E., Forgotten Crimes: The Holocaust and People with Disabilities. Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2004. ISBN 1-56663-565-9
* Friedlander, H. (1995). The Origins of Nazi Genocide. From Euthanasia to the Final Solution. University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 0-8078-2208-6
* Gallagher, G. (1995). By Trust Betrayed: Patients, Physicians, and the License to Kill in the Third Reich. Arlington, Virginia: Vandamere Press. ISBN 0-918339-36-7
* Glass, J. (1999). Life Unworthy of Life: Racial Phobia and Mass Murder in Hitler's Germany Basic Books. ISBN 0465098460
* Kater, M. (1989). Doctors Under Hitler. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 0807818429
* Kuhl, S. (2002). The Nazi Connection: Eugenics, American Racism, and German National Socialism. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195149785
* Kuntz, D. (2006). Deadly Medicine: Creating the Master Race. The University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 0-8078-2916-1
* Lifton, R. (1986). THE NAZI DOCTORS: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide. Basic Books. ISBN 0-465-04905-2
* McFarland-Icke, B. (1999). Nurses in Nazi Germany: Moral Choice in History. Princeton University Press. ISBN 0691006652
* Müller-Hill, B. (1998). Murderous Science: Elimination by Scientific Selection of Jews, Gypsies, and Others in Germany, 1933-1945. Plainview, New York: Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press. ISBN 0879695315
* Nicosia, F. et al. (2002). Medicine and Medical Ethics in Nazi Germany: Origins, Practices, Legacies. Berghahn Books. ISBN 157181387X
* Proctor, R. (2003). Racial Hygiene: Medicine Under the Nazis. Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-74578-7
* Ryan, Donna F., et al. (2002). Deaf People in Hitler's Europe. Washington, D.C.: Gallaudet University Press, ISBN 1-56368-132-3
* Schafft, G. (2004). From Racism to Genocide: Anthropology in the Third Reich. University of Illinois Press. ISBN 0252029305
* Spitz, V. (2005). Doctors from Hell: The Horrific Account of Nazi Experiments on Humans. Sentient Publications. ISBN 1-59181-032-9
* Weikart, R. (2006). From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, And Racism in Germany. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 1-4039-7201-X
* Weindling, P.J. (2005). Nazi Medicine and the Nuremberg Trials: From Medical War Crimes to Informed Consent. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 1-4039-3911-X
* Weindling, P.J. (1989). Health, Race and German Politics between National Unification and Nazism, 1870-1945. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-42397-X

[edit] Academic articles

* Bachrach, S. (2004). "In the name of public health — Nazi racial hygiene". New England Journal of Medicine, 29 July 2004; 351: 417–420.
* Biddiss M. (1997). "Disease and dictatorship: the case of Hitler's Reich" Journal of Royal Society of Medicine, 1997 Jun; 90(6): 342-6.
* Cranach, M. (2003). "The killing of psychiatric patients in Nazi Germany between 1939-1945". The Israel Journal of Psychiatry and Related Sciences, 2003; 40(1): 8-18; discussion 19-28.
* Lerner, B. (1995). "Medicine and the Holocaust: Learning More of the Lessons" Annals of Internal Medicine, 15 May 1995; 122: 10: 793–794.
* Martin III, Matthew D., "The Dysfunctional Progeny of Eugenics: Autonomy Gone AWOL", Cardozo Journal of International Law, Vol. 15, No. 2, Fall 2007, pp. 371–421, ISSN 1069-3181.
* O'Mathúna, D. (2006). "Human dignity in the Nazi era: implications for contemporary bioethics". BioMed Central, 2006 Mar 14;7(1):E2.
* Sofair, A. (2000). "Eugenic sterilization and a qualified Nazi analogy: the United States and Germany, 1930-1945". National Center for Biotechnology Information 2000 Feb 15; 132(4): 312-9.
* Strous, R. D. (2006). "Nazi Euthanasia of the Mentally Ill at Hadamar". American Journal of Psychiatry, January 2006; 163: 27.
* Weigmann, K. (2001). "The role of biologists in Nazi atrocities: lessons for today’s scientists". European Molecular Biology Organization, 15 October 2001; 2(10): 871–875.
* "Eugenical Sterilization in Germany" Eugenical News 1933, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory; vol.18:5.

---

No one denies this happened, But Adolf did it in the name of god.

And in which muslim theocracy does this happen??

Unfortunately nowhere at the moment. Hopefully it will happen someday.....

And it never will.

Education is key for it to happen, and the internet can help us with that.

But education will make people realise that they don't need religion either.
Then what will you do?

[ruhollah]

Contrary to popular belief, this religion doesn't deny evolution. Furthermore this religion doesn't ban controversial scientific experiments.

In fact, stem cell research is getting tremendous funding in Iran!

Where the line is drawn is when scientist and sociologist apply these theories to human society. Social Darwinism is a complete opposite of the principles of this relgion.

The problem with social Darwinism is that the powerful upper class can use these theories to justify that helping the poor and weak is a lost cause. They can claim that evolution bypassed the lower class with not giving them the stronger genes. This kind of rational has dire consequences in society.

Are you the Iranian propaganda minister by any chance?

hahahahah........ good joke