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How can anyone be okay with Hell ?
#81
RE: How can anyone be okay with Hell ?
(May 13, 2011 at 4:45 am)fr0d0 Wrote: But the believer doesn't lack knowledge, logic and wisdom Zenith. Annoyance can be good and bad. And God sends his spirit to work on you. I agree with your last line.

Really? If all things written in the Bible are true, don't you think that there is a need for someone to defend them properly? (unlike, improperly)
Now it doesn't take much to realize that most "believers" don't have advanced knowledge of history, geography, etc. and many have not read their bible in their life! What to say about understanding it properly?? If all believers understood the Bible properly (correctly), then there would have been no more discrepancies between one's beliefs/understanding and other's beliefs/understanding.

Problems of interpretation of the bible, talking about it (i.e. to prove a point), and defending it require knowledge, logic and wisdom, and it is easy to see that many believers lack them when they can't explain properly a simple thing.

Quote:Annoyance can be good and bad.
And it's "bad" when the person is stupid and ignorant and insistent.
(May 13, 2011 at 11:31 am)fr0d0 Wrote: 1. Predetermination: If an entity existed outside of time... all of time would be as one moment to them... there are never 'before or after'. To them, everything you do is already known. That they know that has no impact on your freedom to make the choices that you make.

2. Free Will: You as a biological machine do whatever that biological machine is led to do. You can't do otherwise. The choices you make are choices you would always make. Even if you choose to do the opposite.

You are a free agent to make whatever choices you want, or as dictated by you as the biological machine.

that's a kind of saying: you have the free will to do whatever has been predestined to you.
(May 13, 2011 at 2:42 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(May 13, 2011 at 11:37 am)Napoleon666 Wrote: "If an entity existed outside of time... all of time would be as one moment to them... there are never 'before or after'"
This makes no sense to me whatsoever. In order for something to 'exist' there has to be time. Something existing outside of time just seems illogical to me.
Not illogical, just atemporal. We're not talking about our perspective of time. This entity is defined as not being constrained within that, so you can't say it's illogical on those grounds.

The problem with a God existing outside time is that you (i.e. fr0d0) create the "time" as an object (an entity, whatever).
"Time" is only a an abstract term invented to specify the order of events: you have events => they appear in order => we call it time. The time is not an object we study outside of time to see that it exists and to check its properties. We only define the order of events as "time".

Likewise, I can't believe in a "time travel", and time passing quicker in a place than in another.
Let's assume that it did (I use this premise to prove it's wrong): We imagine a being that fills the Universe (not the God you imagine, we exclude Him from here, because we need a person in this world for whom the laws of the universe apply): he sees two objects moving at once, at two margins of the universe. What does he say: "the time in the left margin passes more slowly than the time in the right margin" or "the object in the left margin moves more slowly than the one in the right margin"? If he can't decide which of them actually is, then it means that there is no base for "the time here is quicker than the time there".

It is illogical for a man to believe (but works in SF movies and SF 'documentaries') that 5 meters here is more lengthier than 5 meters in other place, or that there is an entity called "time" that is a big object, like a film, being unrolled, so that one could take a look 'where' he wants and see what will happen then. And it's illogical to believe that 5 seconds here would last more than 5 seconds in other place.
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#82
RE: How can anyone be okay with Hell ?
It seems to me that hell is a concept that was manipulated in order to convert more people. It's a scare tactic.
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