Posts: 4940
Threads: 99
Joined: April 17, 2011
Reputation:
45
RE: Is Atheism Intellectual Cowardice?
May 11, 2011 at 10:35 am
(May 10, 2011 at 4:29 pm)diffidus Wrote: Atheism cannot, therefore, be ascerted based upon certain knowledge. Therefore, it follows that the truly honest position of any member of humanity is Agnostic. It is intellectual cowardice, on the part of Atheists, not to accept the rational conclusions that reason leads to - namely, that no definitive statement can be about the existence/or not of God, due to lack of knowledge.
I think the flaw in your argument is that you assume that the basic stance of atheism is that it's a fact that there are absolutely no gods whatsoever. While many atheists may think this, the basic idea of atheism is that an atheist just doesn't believe in any gods. That's not to say that we wouldn't believe in a god if one were shown to exist. Atheism is not asserted based on any knowledge, but usually asserted due to lack of evidence to the contrary. I am perfectly aware that there's no definitive proof one way or the other as to any god's existence, but until such proof is shown I must take the default position and say that I don't believe any gods exist. I don't, though, say that it's a fact that no gods exist.
Personally, I think that all agnostics are atheists. Without being able to know whether a god exists or not, the logical thing is to not believe any exist. I think a lot of agnostics are just afraid to call themselves atheists.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
Posts: 4446
Threads: 87
Joined: December 2, 2009
Reputation:
47
RE: Is Atheism Intellectual Cowardice?
May 11, 2011 at 11:28 am
I agree pad, the null position would be to assume no existence.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Posts: 86
Threads: 2
Joined: April 20, 2011
Reputation:
3
RE: Is Atheism Intellectual Cowardice?
May 11, 2011 at 2:35 pm
(May 10, 2011 at 5:21 pm)diffidus Wrote: I have never joined a forum before and so I appologise if I have accidently bypassed some standard protocol. However, my post is not really antagonistic. I have used only civil language and posted a relatively sound argument.
With regard to me arguing over labels, that was not my intention. I merely wished to point out that if you follow the logic of the argument it leads to the unsavoury conclusion that, in reality we cannot ascert, from, standpoint of knowledge, that God does not exist. It is not a safe choice it is the only choice that actually fits the facts.
Diffidus, I think that you annoyed people especially in how you worded the last sentence in your opening post:
Quote:It is intellectual cowardice, on the part of Atheists, not to accept the rational conclusions that reason leads to
You more or less try to tell every atheist here that they are intellectual cowards. You may not have meant it like this, but that's how it is going to be picked up. Don't feel too bad about it, as I make mistakes in adressing issues to people all the friggin time. But try to keep it in mind.
As for the 'is there a god' question. Most atheists will agree that they do not believe, and the concept of a god is very, very unlikely, but in theory should be considered possible. However, do know that this position also counts for the following list:
Santa Claus
Easterbunny
Pink unicorns
The teapot in space
Dragons
Halflings
Magic
Invisible people
Curing people by chanting at them through television (without the use of the palcebo effect)
Gnomes
Telepathy
Animal spirits
talking toys
and so on...You get the idea. Those were just some random ideas that popped into my head.
When I was a Christian, I was annoyed with dogmatic condescending Christians. Now that I'm an atheist, I'm annoyed with dogmatic condescending atheists. Just goes to prove that people are the same, regardless of what they do or don't believe.
Posts: 216
Threads: 4
Joined: September 13, 2010
Reputation:
2
RE: Is Atheism Intellectual Cowardice?
May 12, 2011 at 9:53 am
Definition of Atheism:
Code: a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
Please get your facts straight OP. The possibility of a God is there; but to believe something without evidence is simple madness. The first post was utter nonsense (although the facts were true it has NOTHING to do with Atheism).
Posts: 1817
Threads: 18
Joined: April 22, 2011
Reputation:
17
RE: Is Atheism Intellectual Cowardice?
May 12, 2011 at 11:43 am
(May 12, 2011 at 9:53 am)krazedkat Wrote: Definition of Atheism:
Code: a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
Please get your facts straight OP. The possibility of a God is there; but to believe something without evidence is simple madness. The first post was utter nonsense (although the facts were true it has NOTHING to do with Atheism). Further, the possibility exists that I will sprout wings and fly away. "God" is less possible than that, however. (I exist, God doesn't, so I'm ahead by that much.)
Posts: 274
Threads: 5
Joined: April 17, 2010
Reputation:
12
RE: Is Atheism Intellectual Cowardice?
May 13, 2011 at 10:00 am
But we have to draw the line somewhere. If we were to take the safe route, then anything that any human's mind can conceive is a possibility, and thus can never be dismissed. It's bunk. The existence of god has the same probability of existing as the one eyed one horned flying purple people eater. I don't feel the slightest bit afraid that perhaps we are wrong about the OEOHFPPE, gods are no different. Agnosticism is atheism lite, like intelligent design is creationism lite. Lets not forget that possibility is not synonymous with probability, and as intellectual beings we have to seperate the possible from the probable.
"In our youth, we lacked the maturity, the decency to create gods better than ourselves so that we might have something to aspire to. Instead we are left with a host of deities who were violent, narcissistic, vengeful bullies who reflected our own values. Our gods could have been anything we could imagine, and all we were capable of manifesting were gods who shared the worst of our natures."-Me
"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men." – Francis Bacon
Posts: 83
Threads: 3
Joined: May 10, 2011
Reputation:
3
RE: Is Atheism Intellectual Cowardice?
May 13, 2011 at 10:17 am
(May 13, 2011 at 10:00 am)SleepingDemon Wrote: Agnosticism is atheism lite, like intelligent design is creationism lite. Lets not forget that possibility is not synonymous with probability, and as intellectual beings we have to seperate the possible from the probable.
As I understand the term.. agnosticism is simply realizing the question of God is as relevant as query asking if there is a smiley face on the sun... There is no position because there is no relevance..
Posts: 274
Threads: 5
Joined: April 17, 2010
Reputation:
12
RE: Is Atheism Intellectual Cowardice?
May 13, 2011 at 11:54 am
(May 13, 2011 at 10:17 am)Eudaimonia Wrote: (May 13, 2011 at 10:00 am)SleepingDemon Wrote: Agnosticism is atheism lite, like intelligent design is creationism lite. Lets not forget that possibility is not synonymous with probability, and as intellectual beings we have to seperate the possible from the probable.
As I understand the term.. agnosticism is simply realizing the question of God is as relevant as query asking if there is a smiley face on the sun... There is no position because there is no relevance..
Perhaps. But that isn't the position implied by this thread. The first post sets the premise that because one cannot disprove god, then it is safer to dwell in the maybe zone than make a judgement.
"In our youth, we lacked the maturity, the decency to create gods better than ourselves so that we might have something to aspire to. Instead we are left with a host of deities who were violent, narcissistic, vengeful bullies who reflected our own values. Our gods could have been anything we could imagine, and all we were capable of manifesting were gods who shared the worst of our natures."-Me
"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men." – Francis Bacon
Posts: 328
Threads: 25
Joined: August 15, 2010
Reputation:
4
RE: Is Atheism Intellectual Cowardice?
May 13, 2011 at 3:27 pm
(May 10, 2011 at 5:33 pm)diffidus Wrote: I don not believe in God. But I like you do not have all the evidence required to deny the existence of God. I would agree that, based upon our current undertsanding, the odds are in favour of God's non existence but since our knowledege base may be only a drop in the ocean it cannot be ascerted that God does not exist, it is at best a belief based upon current understanding.
What would be required to even consider that there may be a god? You have to be willing to consider that a) a spiritual being exists in this physical universe or b) that a spiritual realm exists outside of our physical universe. Or else, we would have to change what we mean by "god." Even if our current set of scientific facts is rather non-exhaustive with regard to how much we will come to learn in the future, to suggest that a god could exist in theory would be to suggest that there exist some laws other than the known natural laws. Every piece of knowledge that we have accumulated through science screams to an exactly opposite reality. It seems to me that to let the possibility of a spiritual realm or spiritual beings begin to creep into our thinking (This is what agnostics do implicitly by refusing to say no gods exists) is to let every other sort of mysticism or mythology creep in. Agnosticism seems to leave those realms open for discussion by not taking a position, but there is no reason to think it should be open for discussion, given hundreds of year of serious scientific inquiry and philosophical thought.
Our Daily Train blog at jeremystyron.com
---
We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir
"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
---
Posts: 77
Threads: 6
Joined: May 10, 2011
Reputation:
0
RE: Is Atheism Intellectual Cowardice?
May 13, 2011 at 3:50 pm
(May 13, 2011 at 3:27 pm)everythingafter Wrote: (May 10, 2011 at 5:33 pm)diffidus Wrote: I don not believe in God. But I like you do not have all the evidence required to deny the existence of God. I would agree that, based upon our current undertsanding, the odds are in favour of God's non existence but since our knowledege base may be only a drop in the ocean it cannot be ascerted that God does not exist, it is at best a belief based upon current understanding.
What would be required to even consider that there may be a god? You have to be willing to consider that a) a spiritual being exists in this physical universe or b) that a spiritual realm exists outside of our physical universe. Or else, we would have to change what we mean by "god." Even if our current set of scientific facts is rather non-exhaustive with regard to how much we will come to learn in the future, to suggest that a god could exist in theory would be to suggest that there exist some laws other than the known natural laws. Every piece of knowledge that we have accumulated through science screams to an exactly opposite reality. It seems to me that to let the possibility of a spiritual realm or spiritual beings begin to creep into our thinking (This is what agnostics do implicitly by refusing to say no gods exists) is to let every other sort of mysticism or mythology creep in. Agnosticism seems to leave those realms open for discussion by not taking a position, but there is no reason to think it should be open for discussion, given hundreds of year of serious scientific inquiry and philosophical thought.
No - The agnostic position is the most rigorous since it most accurately captures the real situation. There is no mysticism whatsoever. It is simply an admission of the real truth that I do not have sufficient knowledge.
Science is not as clear cut as you seem to believe on the concept of otherworlds. If you consider string theory, for example, then there are eleven dimensions to the universe. At the limits of small sizes mankind will never be able to see into realms dictated to by Heisenberg. Nothing is clear cut.
|
