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Deism! (and pantheism and Pandeism, and polypanendeism...)
#21
RE: Deism! (and pantheism and Pandeism, and polypanendeism...)
(June 24, 2011 at 4:04 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(June 24, 2011 at 2:29 am)theVOID Wrote: Why would a deity want/need to create a universe at all?

Same reason we create. Because it's what we do.

So the reason the deity created something is the same reason we create things? Fine, but the reasons why we create have to be examined. You are making a statement where our motivations and that of the deity are the same - That is a substantial claim that requires you make a number of statements, you don't simply get to stop at "Because it's what we do", you have to acknowledge the enormity of the claim you are making about the very nature of existence

We create for many reasons that can basically be reduced to the following

We create x because:
1. We desire to know about x (or what would happen if we did y to x), our general curiosity.
2. We receive pleasure when interacting with x
3. x is instrumental in bringing about a state of affairs we desire or will bring pleasure.

If you're saying the deity creates for the same reason as us you are hereby assuming that the following is true about the deity;

1. The deity is curious and desires knowledge
2. The deity enjoys creating or interacting with objects he creates
3. the deity has goals and he needs to create objects to achieve them

In other words, your deity has a mind and experiences desire and pleasure and has goals, you are at this point asserting that the nature of reality has features similar to the product of the brains of certain life forms - That is an enormous claim to be making about reality, especially since it lacks empirical support entirely. We don't have a perfect understanding of mind, but what we do know is that they are all extraordinarily complex, the most complex things in the universe - You posit that some "ethereal" mind with the features of intelligent sentient creatures existed before the universe (and matter/energy?) and caused it to exist - That is no simple cause!

(June 24, 2011 at 5:43 pm)Cinjin Wrote:
(June 24, 2011 at 4:04 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(June 24, 2011 at 2:29 am)theVOID Wrote: Why would a deity want/need to create a universe at all?

Same reason we create. Because it's what we do.

Keep in mind Void that you have to take the Xtian characteristics of perfection and omnipotence out of the equation as well.

Makes no difference to me, I think you're both making ridiculous claims about the nature of reality, ones that you have absolutely no support for and yet you believe that it is true, omnipotence and it's quirks aside.

Quote:None of it really matters to me though. As soon as someone makes a claim that they KNOW why God would do something or that they even know who he is, automatically gets stamped with a disregard policy from me. Theorizing is fine. I do it often, but making claims of truth is unacceptable to me.

Let's not pretend you're on some different footing from the bulk of Christians we have here, they're also agnostic - The fact that you make less claims about something that neither of you have any rational reason to believe is entirely a moot point, sure you'll likely not want to stomp your values everywhere by threat of imprisonment or refuse to recognise people's decisions to near the same extent compared to a general religious theist, so thumbs up for that, but on a purely metaphysical level I have no more reason to admire your position over general theism.

Quote:Any answer I have for someone is going to be my own conjecture with an attached disclaimer that reminds them that I simply do not know.
I speak only for myself, not deists, when I say: In my opinion, belief in God IS illogical ........... doesn't change the fact that I choose to do so.
Foolish? Perhaps. Paradox? Definitely. Hypocritical? Slightly. Satisfying? Completely.

It's only hypocritical if you claim to care about having true beliefs and an accurate model of reality from which to work from, accepting something you consider illogical as true to the point where you believe it would then make you entirely hypocritical - In a way it's worse than someone believing something for irrational reasons they are unaware of or believe are rational, at least they don't end up in a position where they know they have no good reason to believe and do so anyway.
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#22
RE: Deism! (and pantheism and Pandeism, and polypanendeism...)
(June 27, 2011 at 1:28 am)theVOID Wrote:


Void Wrote:Makes no difference to me, I think you're both making ridiculous claims about the nature of reality, ones that you have absolutely no support for and yet you believe that it is true, omnipotence and it's quirks aside.

Well of course you think that. You're an atheist. I would expect nothing else. And you're right, there is no tangible support for the belief in question.
This entire post is nearly identical to this post. So I will direct you there. Not much point in me re-writing what will eventually be nearly the exact same thing.

[Image: Evolution.png]

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#23
RE: Deism! (and pantheism and Pandeism, and polypanendeism...)
(June 27, 2011 at 12:23 am)Arcos Plage Wrote:
Quote:Entity creates for a purpose > entity has a need. Purpose = need fulfilled.
Cosmos exists because it needed to exist

But did it need to exist prior to its existence? Or did something need it to exist (or to exist as it)?
That depends how purpose works out in your view.
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