Insulting Religion

[Minimalist]

"Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, Allah does not allow you to harm them." (Surah 4:90)

Would be convincing if Islamic armies had remained in Arabia gloriously hacking infidels there....however, it fails to admit the massive expansion which took place. Got a verse for that one?


I'll try to remember about the Spider thing. No promises, though. I'm old.

[Rayaan]

however, it fails to admit the massive expansion which took place. Got a verse for that one?

Yes:

"Invite (all) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious." (Surah 16:125).

This is going off-topic and I don't want to hijack this thread with verses from the Quran. So, let's go back to Pat Condell's video.

[Napoléon]

(But call me Spider, from now on, because other members who are new may get confused who you are talking to).

Are we calling you that because you're the creepy one with lot's of body hair and loads of eyes (not to mention ugly sheesh)?

Seriously, did I miss something? Why we call you spider Rayaan!

[fr0d0]

Except this bit Spider Rayaan:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (Sura at Tawba 9:5).

We've had an influx of people lately asking for their stupid views to be given respect. Fuck that.

Quite.

[Rayaan]

Except this bit Spider Rayaan:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (Sura at Tawba 9:5).

If you read from the beginning of the same chapter (Surah At-Tauba), from the first verse to the fifth verse, you will know that there is a historical background to the verse that you quoted. It is speaking about an event that happened at a specific time and a specific place. Therefore, it is not a command which is to be applied for all times and all places.

In the first verse (Chapter 9), it says that there is a treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriks (or polytheists) of Mecca who used to persecute the Muslims. However, the precondition for the Muslims to engage in a war against them is only if they break the treaty. This is the reason why the verse was revealed to Muhammad - i.e. because it enabled the Muslims to defend themselves against the constant persecution from the hostile, pagan tribes of Mecca - which is, IF they attack first. So, the important thing is to look at the verses which comes before the specific verse that you quoted.

[Minimalist]

Actually, I think it is Condell's point....

"Invite (all) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious." (Surah 16:125).

So the sword wielding mob was nothing more than a theatrical prop?

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/Plai...raphID=ebf

One of the most dramatic and sudden movements of any people in history is the expansion, by conquest, of the Arabs in the 7th century (only the example of the Mongols in the 13th century can match it). The desert tribesmen of Arabia form the bulk of the Muslim armies. Their natural ferocity and love of warfare, together with the sense of moral rectitude provided by their new religion, form an irresistible combination.

You know, xtians like to pretend that their bullshit spread peacefully, too. It didn't.

[fr0d0]

Yes I was aware of those verses too Spidey

See here for a more thorough treatment: http://aristophrenium.com/fisher/surah-9...the-sword/

[Minimalist]

Yo, Spidey...

Got a verse to cover this one?

http://apnews.excite.com/article/2011071...3H8O0.html

JAKARTA, Indonesia (AP) - Police in Indonesia arrested the headmaster of an Islamic boarding school Friday after a man there died earlier this week, reportedly while trying to teach students how to make homemade bombs.

[Rayaan]

So the sword wielding mob was nothing more than a theatrical prop?

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/Plai...raphID=ebf

They did invade those countries but they did not force people to convert to Islam. For hundreds of years, the majority of the inhabitants of those countries remained at their original religion.

So, the purpose of the invasion was not to spread Islam, but it was to spread the Islamic way of governance. This is very similar as the western world wanting to spread Democracy including if it requires war or sanctions and so on. The Muslims also offered pacts to some countries rather than changing their system (although most countries chose fighting). Expansion is not required by Islam. It is, however, allowed only if the ruler of the Muslim state decides to do so.

Also, there were many examples of Christians, Jews, and other communities flourishing under Islamic rule without being forced to live as Muslims. Muhammad granted autonomy to Christians and Jews as long as they sign a pact of non-aggression and pay taxes - and in return - they get their autonomy and a guarantee for safety and security for their lives, money, and honor. (For more info on this topic, see Jews of Islam, by Bernard Lews).

See here for a more thorough treatment: http://aristophrenium.com/fisher/surah-9...the-sword/

I'll take a look at it.

But, here's another thorough-er-er-er treatment: http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.ph...onceptions

[Autumnlicious]

It's a matter of jihad, defensive or otherwise.

Yet another Islam-only ridicularity.