How realistic is it really?

[Minimalist]

But it wouldn't be sudden.

That was not the way I interpreted the OP but, again, we have seen Europe distance itself slowly from the church with no great harm. I agree with R/S - there are plenty of stupid people in the US who simply cannot face a reality that does not depend on their sky-daddy fucking their enemies over for them and telling them who to hate in the meantime. This particular group of clowns is a threat but the good news is that they are shattered by doctrinal differences among themselves. Many are nominal catholics which is anathema to the protestant assholes who don't even consider them xtians.

And then there are the mormons. Talk about fucked up!

[theVOID]

It would be worth a try.

For one thing, if you get rid of the major players you can end the tax exemptions that these phony preachers get which would remove the profit margin. Do that and you'd be surprised how many would get out of the business.

They'd go into something like banking that the republicolibertarianazis don't want to tax, either.

I wonder if Godwin had you and Beck in mind when he came up with his law, except rather than the mention of Nazis emerging over time in a conversation with the two of you it's "Step 1. Call opponents Nazis".

[KichigaiNeko]

Suggesting that Sweden is doing pretty well with religion on the decline.

Yet, how is that achieved?



'Anti-Semitism on the rise in Sweden' - February 9, 2009

Sweden Deports *Christian Refugees Back to Terror in Iraq - January 19, 2011

Why Iraqi Christians Are Running Scared — in Sweden
By Vivienne Walt Saturday, Nov. 13, 2010

Go Sweden!!! should be more of it.

Seriously how on earth do these 'religious' people expect anything to get better if they don't stay and fight for it in their own country??

[ElDinero]

Excuse me? Have you been out of the country in the past decade? Or in a holding tank? Quite the contrary is the case. The founding fathers did their best to keep church and state separated. Bachmann and the other Mor(m)ons clearly try to corrupt that picture (the Religious Right has been working on that, and made considerable progress, since the fifties: the corruption of the pledge!). And guess who's winning right now?

The way things are going the very real spectre looms that you'll have a bonafide inquisition/witch hunt (Salem/McCarthy style) in the United States and a couple crusades (Vietnam/Iraq style) elsewhere on your hands by this time next year. For the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ!

The religious right are pushing hard at the moment in response to the fact that people who identify as agnostic or atheist has doubled in the last decade, and is expected to double again in the next decade. That's why I say it's happening at the moment, it's a movement that's really picking up steam and it's in no small part due to places like this, and accessible, concise material like The Atheist Experience which are tearing down misconceptions about atheists and their goals and making people question their beliefs.

Furthermore, there have been several high profile cases of people challenging government endorsement of religion and getting results and raising further awareness (and making some enemies, for sure). So as for who's winning, I don't know. There are still greater rights afforded to religious groups, but I think you're going to see less and less of it, and if the population of agnostics/atheists does double again by, say, 2020, they'll make up not far off 10% of the population, and could then start to be regarded as an important demographic to appeal to.

As for your prediction about McCarthyism striking again, I'm not sure I really get what you're saying will happen. That atheists will be targeted? Why do you think that? I'm not sure it would matter if that did happen, in the long term. If you think about the end results of both of those examples, it was a raised consciousness and the realisation that the practices of the witch-hunters/McCarthy were reprehensible. It could also lead to civil action by atheists in protest, which would have the same effect.

I do agree that a sudden removal of religion could have negative effects, but since I can't see how you'd even do that, it's kind of moot. Unless you're kind of talking about an alternate reality in which the people wake up tomorrow and nobody remembers that religion ever existed, in which case I think it would be fine, or at least no worse. I think it's a little patronising to say that they NEED these myths. They might need them at the moment because it's what's been drummed into them on a personal and societal level. If they never knew it existed, they'd find some other way to console themselves, and who knows, it might just be in rational thinking.

[Rokcet Scientist]

I think it's a little patronising to say that they NEED these myths.

I think it's a little acidic to attack the messenger when the message is a matter of at least the holocene record. Like evolution is a matter of the fossil record. Of course there are those that deny everything they find inconvenient no matter what, even in the face of mountains of hard scientific evidence, and prefer to go after soft targets with venom.
You look like one of those.

[ElDinero]

Firstly, get rid of the attitude. Why are you trying to ruin what seems to me a perfectly reasonable discussion? You did it with your first response to me by implying I didn't have an open mind and have carried on in the same vein ever since.

I'm open to the evidence, of course. I've provided a whole bunch of things in my posts that explain why I feel a gradual marginalising of religion/growth of atheism over the course of decades has already begun (I'm happy to provide sources for the figures if that would help), why it would be a good thing, and why I don't feel it would leave us in chaos, which is something you've asserted would happen.

I did agree that if you removed religion from people that currently hold it dear, there could be negative effects, but since it would be impossible to do that, I don't really see why it's a worthwhile discussion. As I have stated many times, I am talking about a gradual process lasting generations, and I dispute that people who don't already have religion drummed into them require it to keep them from chaos. And in fact, many of the 'stupid' people who supposedly need it, and have it, are perfectly capable of causing chaos even with their religion.

I'm happy to agree that there is evidence to suggest that people are susceptible to religious and supernatural claims, but I don't think that's the same as needing them. If atheists can manage without them on an individual basis, I don't see why the same can't be said at a societal level.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Firstly, get rid of the attitude.

Are you now trying to be a comedian?

Why are you trying to ruin what seems to me a perfectly reasonable discussion?

Nice try, but your interjections are just trawls of course. Thinly veiled attempts to sidetrack, derail, and backup the discussion. And you know the expression: ask a stupid question...

[ElDinero]

What are you talking about? Explain what is at all unreasonable about my position. Do you do this everywhere? I'm trying to provoke discussion, I even thought we were having one, once upon a time. Either respond directly to the points I've made, or let someone else do it in a constructive way.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, It's not unreasonable that people COULD do fine without religion. It would be difficult to determine the effects with a level of precision that would be required to consider it a fact. That said, it's fairly obvious that there are many who would do terrible things faced with that loss. I suppose those groups are the ones people are thinking of when they assume chaos.

(and yes, I also feel that it is patronizing to think that people NEED these myths. I think it would be more prudent to say that some WANT these myths very very badly)

[Minimalist]

I wonder if Godwin had you and Beck in mind when he came up with his law, except rather than the mention of Nazis emerging over time in a conversation with the two of you it's "Step 1. Call opponents Nazis".

Covering your ears and going LALALALA will not change the obvious fascistic elements which have emerged in American society since WWII, Void. And the rich business criminal cocksuckers , who YOU champion, are the prime beneficiaries.

---

I also feel that it is patronizing to think that people NEED these myths.

Take a look at your stupider fundies....G-C would be a good place to start.... and you'll see that he needs his bullshit sky-daddy more than he needs air water and food. If he didn't think he was being watched every second of every day he'd just go to pieces.