Help with a Catholic

[Minimalist]

Logic is a poor servant and an even worse master.

He presents logic but always begins on step "2".

His first step...unspoken... is "my god is real."

Unless you force him to provide evidence that he is no crazier than anyone else who ever worshiped a sky daddy you are wasting your time.

You know, in the Roman Republic the pater familias ( head of the family) had the right to execute his children and the DUTY to kill obviously deformed infants. Yet the Romans were quick to denounce their Carthaginian enemies for child sacrifice.

Both sides considered themselves "moral."

[Hurny]

Logic is a poor servant and an even worse master.

He presents logic but always begins on step "2".

His first step...unspoken... is "my god is real."

why do you criticize logic? What else can possibly guide you? It seems like the most basic starting point or foundation.

As for step 1 and 2 you could say the same thing about an atheist or a theist, their step 1 is always belief in God or not, its the same both ways.

Anyway I'll have to refer back to my previous posts for the rest of it since I've already covered the distinction between moral practices and moral laws, a culture can disbelieve in 2+2=4 or believe in 2+2=5 but it doesn't change the truth, so examples of moral differences within cultures doesn't change the fact of the case. Also most cultures don't really disagree as much as people make it out to be the case, no culture has ever said there is no morality whatsoever (at least no culture that has survived) and no culture has said evil is good and good is evil etc. anyway like I said I refer back to previous posts we've already covered this

[Judas BentHer]

Hurney,

I think you'd have to ask yourself first why this guy elected a scenario describing pro-choice for rape as a fitting comparison to a woman's right to decide the future for herself, with consideration to what she permits to take up residence, like unto a parasite, in her womb.


Rape is not only illegal, but is one of the most horrifically violent assaults and personal trespasses on a woman's sense of self, sexuality and emotions, one can think of. Perpetrated by deviant violent people against their victim.

Which, while those characteristics can be attributed to the most ardent ultra-right wing conservative pro-life zealot when they take up the standard to force women to remain pregnant against their will, by law, it remains that a woman's right to choose is her right. Not her violation.

And when it comes to the god excuse to champion forced pregnancy and outlawing of all abortion, besides all the scripture that describes god's repeated murder of the born and the unborn, if one first accepts all life comes from god and all things happen by god's will, as the scriptures say, then spontaneous abortion, aka miscarriage, besides those aforementioned infanticide instances in scripture, make god the universal abortionist.

And another thing. Genesis tells us that humans do not become a living soul until they take their first breath. Per the Adam creation story wherein god breathed the breath of life into the Adam and he became a living soul.

A fetus does not take a breath in utero. Only after they're born, do they breathe. So abortion does not kill a living soul, so as to allegedly offend a god that kills fetus in utero with regularity.

And finally, if you really want to spin the Catholic anti-choice forced pregnancy by law zealot on his ass, bring to his attention that abortion saves! Returning a pure soul unto Heaven, so that they're not born into this world bearing the curse of god's ordained original sin.

[Minimalist]

As for step 1 and 2 you could say the same thing about an atheist or a theist, their step 1 is always belief in God or not, its the same both ways.

Oh, I can't speak for eveyone else but I never say that.

I say that "there is no evidence for any of the gods ever imagined by men." And then occasionally I politely invite them to provide it.


Sometimes, I confess, I am not so polite.

Either way....I'm still waiting.

[Hurny]

Hurney,

I think you'd have to ask yourself first why this guy elected a scenario describing pro-choice for rape as a fitting comparison to a woman's right to decide the future for herself, with consideration to what she permits to take up residence, like unto a parasite, in her womb.


Rape is not only illegal, but is one of the most horrifically violent assaults and personal trespasses on a woman's sense of self, sexuality and emotions, one can think of. Perpetrated by deviant violent people against their victim.

Which, while those characteristics can be attributed to the most ardent ultra-right wing conservative pro-life zealot when they take up the standard to force women to remain pregnant against their will, by law, it remains that a woman's right to choose is her right. Not her violation.

And when it comes to the god excuse to champion forced pregnancy and outlawing of all abortion, besides all the scripture that describes god's repeated murder of the born and the unborn, if one first accepts all life comes from god and all things happen by god's will, as the scriptures say, then spontaneous abortion, aka miscarriage, besides those aforementioned infanticide instances in scripture, make god the universal abortionist.

And another thing. Genesis tells us that humans do not become a living soul until they take their first breath. Per the Adam creation story wherein god breathed the breath of life into the Adam and he became a living soul.

A fetus does not take a breath in utero. Only after they're born, do they breathe. So abortion does not kill a living soul, so as to allegedly offend a god that kills fetus in utero with regularity.

And finally, if you really want to spin the Catholic anti-choice forced pregnancy by law zealot on his ass, bring to his attention that abortion saves! Returning a pure soul unto Heaven, so that they're not born into this world bearing the curse of god's ordained original sin.

alright well thanks everyone, I'm going to have to call it a night and I'll bring this stuff to him tomorrow and we'll see how it goes, I'm sure I'll be by again tomorrow and give you an update. thanks

[Kayenneh]

Hurney, you talk a lot about objectivity, but why then are you so blinded by emotion?

It doesn't matter if the foetus has all the genetic matter to code a human being. I feel as much for the lump of cells growing in a woman's uterus as I would for the skin cells , I don't cry every time I scratch my arm or mourn the loss for the cells I shed every day.

And about absolute moral, what on earth is that? Morals are a concept based on the culture you're from, so you'll get a different set of explanations about what it is from every single person you ask. Why should his morals matter the most to you? To have a child full-term is a huge responsibility. Parenting is a serious issue and by the look of kids today, parents aren't doing too good a job. To make the horrible decision that you don't want to give birth to your child might be the wisest decision to do. A child deserves a comfortable home with stable parents, not all who are pregnant are able to offer this. Adoption might be a choice, but this planet is over-crowded as it is already, why bring more mouths to feed to this world?
If by screening it's found that the child will be in any way deformed, I do not judge those who decides to terminate. Serious ilnesses are taxing for the parents, cost society loads and no to mention how it may affect the one with the disability.
Not to mention those whose life is at risk, are too young, rape victims etc.

I'm definetely pro-abortion, but that doesn't mean that I would have an abortion if I got pregnant by accident. I just like the to have the choice.

[The Grand Nudger]

Why do people insist that the atheists argument begins with the assumption "no god". The conclusion may be "no god" with respect to individual arguments, but that isn't the fault of the atheist is it. Things are what they are, the man who first theorized that the earth revolved around the sun did not make it so by his wishing.

God is apparently very socially awkward, not surprising, if he has existed alone in eternity. We don't find him anywhere (and not for lack of looking). For "god" to work in any argument, it must be stated as the premise, making god as the conclusion circular logic. There is no argument for god that does not use god as it's premise. Criticizing the opposing viewpoint does not lend any more credibility to your own. Stating that atheists reasoning is as "flawed" as the theists is a statement arising from misinformation, or willfully obtuse.

[Minimalist]

[quote='Minimalist' pid='158026' dateline='1311617993']

Why do people insist that the atheists argument begins with the assumption "no god".

In many cases it is just stupidity. Incapable of comprehending anything out side of their own blind adherence to god shit they redefine their opponents in terms that they can understand and then insist on phony arguments to defeat the strawmen they have constructed.





I meant to get back to this one last night and forgot. Getting old, I guess.

why do you criticize logic? What else can possibly guide you? It seems like the most basic starting point or foundation.

Because logical argument proceeds from a premise and far too few people examine their premises to determine if they are true.

What passes for "logic" among the religious is quite illogical.

[Hurny]

Hey guys,

well I had some pretty lengthy and in depth discussions with this guy today but I don't know that I'll have time to post much tonight. I'll get back on as soon as I can with more thoughts and questions. thanks, talk to you later

[Godscreated]

Hey guys,

well I had some pretty lengthy and in depth discussions with this guy today but I don't know that I'll have time to post much tonight. I'll get back on as soon as I can with more thoughts and questions. thanks, talk to you later

Well Hurny seems that these guys have given it their best shot and come up short. Why are you so determined to prove this guy wrong, when what you should be doing is looking for the truth. I believe that between you and others on this site not having any positive refutation of his arguements that you can see that he is correct in what he has said. Sometimes we have to swallow our pride and see the truth, believe me I know from experience. I know this is not the help you were looking for, I do believe that it could be the help you need.