Evidence for Jesus outside the Bible?

[Shell B]

No....I was not making it up. I am unfamiliar with the quote system. I think that was my attempt to butcher the thing by copying and pasting the end thing in brackets. I just went back to the comment I got the quotes right in to check the way I did it but it's not possible to do an edit now. I'll read this link.

I didn't say you were making it up. That link will be very helpful. I will go in and fix what I can.

[Minimalist]

Honest?

Apparently not since you keep raking up the same old shit with no variation.

Fake ones would choose life.

OK. It took long enough so you ARE making the absurd No True Scotsman argument. It's okay. I really did not expect more. Pliny finds xtians. Xtians decide not to die for jesus. Therefore they can't be "real"xtians in your book because you think xtians would not do that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Can you provide historical evidence for your first point in the sentence above?

I believe I already gave you such a link to Jesus Never Existed which lists his sources. You are not going to find such a story at http://www.holyhorseshit.com.

Read it or not but don't pretend you were not given it.

So don't watch films then. I haven't watched a film in years.

Really, because your vision of this stuff seems to be right out of "The Robe."

[Hannah]

OMG.....unreal! There is no trick in what I'm saying! Real Christians who have faith would die for their faith. I know this. I would have died had I been given an ultimatum during my most faithful times. I wouldn't have chosen death had I been in my more questioning times. Surely this concept is not new to you. This is part of the conditioning Christians experience. A faithful Christian would not be able to deny their faith. Now please tell me what is 'absurd' about what I've said.

You said you believed Christians were never martyred. I asked you to provide evidence because there is evidence to the contrary.

[Shell B]

You said you believed Christians were never martyred. I asked you to provide evidence because there is evidence to the contrary.

What evidence is there for true martyrdom?

[Rwandrall]

Hannah, are you honestly saying you know what a Christian is better than the Christians themselves ? Who are you, what qualification do you have, to pretend knowing the criteria for what is or is not a "true" christian ?

You can create your own definition all you like. It doesn't mean anything, it doesn't affect anything, it has no impact. It just means you think you know someone's faith better than they know themselves, and pretending to be able to know makes you look like an egocentrical douche, pardon the expression.

Seriously, get off your high horse.

[Hannah]

Hannah, are you honestly saying you know what a Christian is better than the Christians themselves ? Who are you, what qualification do you have, to pretend knowing the criteria for what is or is not a "true" christian ?

You can create your own definition all you like. It doesn't mean anything, it doesn't affect anything, it has no impact. It just means you think you know someone's faith better than they know themselves, and pretending to be able to know makes you look like an egocentrical douche, pardon the expression.

Seriously, get off your high horse.

Jesus Christ what's wrong with you lot???? I never preached about some Christians being more real than others in a derogatory way. Please copy and paste the parts of my comments that suggested that. The point I was making was that Christians were executed if they did not deny their faith and that faithful/real/genuine/believing Christians would choose death rather than deny their faith. Why do you have a problem with that? What part of that statement is either wrong or insensitive?

[Shell B]

Jesus Christ what's wrong with you lot????

Hannah, it does you no good to meet every bit of opposition with incredulity at the alleged stupidity or wrongness of the members of this forum. When you enter into a debate, you should always be prepared meet opposing opinions.

I never preached about some Christians being more real than others in a derogatory way.

It doesn't need to be derogatory. This is a common complaint of mine. According to the Bible, god judges who the Christians are. No person on Earth is capable of sorting out "true Christians" from "fake Christians" according the criteria for Christianity set forth in the Bible. Therefore, you cannot say one way or the other who is Christian and who is not. You have to take their word for it, unless met with irrefutable evidence that they are lying.

The point I was making was that Christians were executed if they did not deny their faith and that faithful/real/genuine/believing Christians would choose death rather than deny their faith. Why do you have a problem with that? What part of that statement is either wrong or insensitive?

The problem is that your claim insinuates that no "true Christian" would choose life and deny their faith. I have no idea if "true Christians" have even renounced their faith in the face of death, but I find it far more believable than assuming the millions of Christians on Earth would die if forced to renounce their faith. Your argument would have more steam if you said "some" true Christians, but you assert that "all" true Christians are that way. I wonder how much of your faith you have let go of in the course of becoming an atheist. (See how I assume you are atheist because you claim to be.)

[Hannah]

My comment was honest and from experience. The Bible even mentally prepares Christians for the possibility of martydom due to not denying the faith. I am not a Christian anymore. Having been one does, however, mean I know how it feels to be a Christian.

Quoting Padraic in my volcano thread.....'Interesting; I can't dispute that. I said only that Judaism was not monthotheistic BEFORE Exodus. In his recent book,"The Bible Unearthed" Israel Finkelstein reveals that he and others have yfound THOUSANDS of female deity figures all over Israel,dating to about 700bce. These finds indicate that although monotheism may have been the official religion by that time, many people still worshiped the old gods. (Obviously not true jews)'.

'True' Jews.

You don't have a problem with that then.

[Faith No More]

What part of that statement is either wrong or insensitive?

I is wrong because you are subjectively defining what a Christian is based on your own personal experience. What if I were to tell you that because you use the 'no true scotsman' fallacy, you are not really an atheist? That fits my personal definition, but does that actually mean you're not an atheist? Of course not, because my opinion of what a true atheist is has no bearing on the actual definition.

One could easily make the argument that a true Christian would not die for his beliefs so he/she could have more time on Earth to spread the gospel and save more souls.

[Shell B]

My comment was honest and from experience.

Sometimes honest and truth are not synonymous. As for experience, do you know any Christians who have died for their religion or you just know some who say that?

Having been one does, however, mean I know how it feels to be a Christian.

As do many of those who are debating with you. So, as a former Christian, you think you know better than other former Christians?

Quoting Padraic in my volcano thread.....'Interesting; I can't dispute that. I said only that Judaism was not monthotheistic BEFORE Exodus. In his recent book,"The Bible Unearthed" Israel Finkelstein reveals that he and others have yfound THOUSANDS of female deity figures all over Israel,dating to about 700bce. These finds indicate that although monotheism may have been the official religion by that time, many people still worshiped the old gods. (Obviously not true jews)'.

'True' Jews.

You don't have a problem with that then.

I just sent you the BB code guide. Please use quote tags.

Actually, I do have a problem with the statement, if it is not sarcastic. "Jew" is not just a religious term. It is also an ethnicity. Therefore, I would oppose someone calling a Jew not a "true Jew" based on their religious beliefs. Nonetheless, I take umbrage to your insinuating that I have a double standard when I never even replied to the comment he made in the volcano thread. I never even read it and you implied that I did and ignored it because I favor his beliefs over yours. That is not the case and you made a leap to suggest it.