No problems with atheism then...

[Godnose]

Oh wow! I haven't heard of that book before! -_-'

But have you ever read it?

[frankiej]

Oh wow! I haven't heard of that book before! -_-'

But have you ever read it?

yes, 3 times... So, you are saying that you have read such books and still can't quite grasp what we are saying?

[Epimethean]

Godnose, is the numerical value of zero difficult to understand?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Godnose, is the numerical value of zero difficult to understand?

Actually,yes I think it is . Perhaps that's why it took so long to discover. Eg unknown to the Romans..

In philosophy we had to write a tutorial paper on "what is a number?" Not as easy as you might think.Try it.

Just because we were taught something from childhood does not mean the concept is necessarily easy or obvious.

[Minimalist]

I'd say that the numerical value of zero is a snap when compared to the mental gyrations needed to come to the conclusion that 3 = 1.

[Epimethean]

Godnose, is the numerical value of zero difficult to understand?

Actually,yes I think it is . Perhaps that's why it took so long to discover. Eg unknown to the Romans..

In philosophy we had to write a tutorial paper on "what is a number?" Not as easy as you might think.Try it.

Just because we were taught something from childhood does not mean the concept is necessarily easy or obvious.

I disagree, pad. The null sum, represented by the value "not any" is very easily understood, even by children.

[twocompulsive]

Now why on Earth would anyone use atheism as
the means to seeking solutions in every day life ?
I was not aware that that was the purpose of it. By
all means use logic and reason which rightly held in
high regard by atheists as a means of understanding
the world but not actually atheism itself for that is just
plain nonsensical. Atheism is not a political or religious
charter for how to live your life and am so surprised that
you labour under the illusion that it is Godnose. For me as
regards others, I invoke the Golden Rule which is the basis
for how we should all live. Long as you are not harming any
one else you should have the freedom do whatever you wish
Couple of specifics that I also believe in: never borrow money
and never get married for reasons that should be very obvious

[Godnose]

Now why on Earth would anyone use atheism as the means to seeking solutions in every day life ?

I think I have made myself clear about that.

I was not aware that that was the purpose of it.

I was not aware there was any purpose of atheism. It is a condition of mind, not a utility.

By all means use logic and reason which rightly held in high regard by atheists as a means of understanding the world but not actually atheism itself for that is just plain nonsensical.

Eh?

Well, the "nonsense" bit seems pretty accurate, but I don't know where you get the "plain" from. I think maybe you missed out a word or two there, old chap. Because the sense of it doesn't quite hang together, if you get me.

Atheism is not a political or religious charter for how to live your life and am so surprised that you labour under the illusion that it is Godnose.

I am astounded that you seem to think that I do so. I am not against religion because I am an atheist, I am against religion because of the harm it causes. If it caused no harm I would not be against it - but I would still be an atheist.

For me as regards others, I invoke the Golden Rule which is the basis for how we should all live.

Although in essence I agree with you, I would never be so dogmatic to presume "how we should all live". It is a matter of individual choice. But the golden rule is a pretty good one, I agree. Although of course there's always the old masochist problem...

Long as you are not harming any one else you should have the freedom do whatever you wish

Whereupon I notice you commence laying down the law, to wit:

Couple of specifics that I also believe in: never borrow money

Why ever not? And how was we supposed to buy our house then?

and never get married for reasons that should be very obvious

My wife and I would never have got married "for reasons that should be very obvious". The reasons we got married were quite subtle, as it happens. And getting married was deffo the best thing I have ever done. But there is no way that I could explain that to you. And even if I thought you'd understand I still wouldn't, because it's none of your flippin' business.

Enjoy your word shapes man. Very - well, very something, not quite sure what exactly.

Oh yeah, I know the word...

"Gimmicky".

Neat though.

---

Oh wow! I haven't heard of that book before! -_-'

But have you ever read it?

yes, 3 times... So, you are saying that you have read such books and still can't quite grasp what we are saying?

I can grasp what you are saying OK. Just can't always quite find the sense.

I think you need to read the book again though, perhaps a bit more carefully, 'cos when I read it (the one time only) I discovered that whereas I had always thought I was agnostic I am in fact an atheist, in terms of the scientific method. It didn't change my belief, but what it did change was the way I regarded my belief (from agnostic to atheist). In other words, although I had always thought myself agnostic, in fact I had always been an atheist.

---

Godnose, is the numerical value of zero difficult to understand?

Well ... depends how you look at it. I assume you are on about the one god vs no god thing. OK, let's play it straight first. Once there were loads of gods, then there's just the One (as discovered by Abraham), and then whoopee along comes whoever and goes "Oh no, it's just an illusion". And there is Zero. Nought. Zilch. Diddly squat. Except -it's still there innit. In the minds of folk. And even if all of them totally gave that illusion up, there'd still be the after taste - the books, the pictures, the memories. The concept would still lurk... That's the regular kind of zero, the one I reckon you probably had in your tiny little brain*.

OK, now let's imagine for a moment that religion had never existed. So no shepherd by the Nile watching the stars move and predicting the annual flood. No Moses, no Abraham, none of all that caper. No Hindus neither, no Thor, no Mo, L Ron Hubbard, none of any of it. Just bear with me will you ....

So, there's no religion, never been a religion ... how many gods is there then? Zero gods? Well, where would the "God" concept have come from? How can there be zero gods if no-one's ever thought of at least one god? See what I mean?

So that's whole different kind of zero, innit.

So we got two zeroes - the zero that arises from the subtraction of one from one, the "real" zero, and then there's the other zero, which just exists because - well - because. I suppose we could call it the "imaginary zero".Only no, not really, because it can't even be "imagined" iof there's no actual concept to base it on, can we. I know, how about calling it the "unimagined zero"

Like zero votinoticules for example. "What is a votinoticule?" I hear you ask. And what do I reply? "I dunno" is what I reply, "I never thought of one before". But we know how many there are, don't we! Zero! But a whole different kind of zero now from the kind of zero there was before I ever first invented the word "votinoticule". Befvore i invented the word "votinoticule" there really was a zero number of 'em. Now, although even if we count all the votinoticules in the world we come to zero, it's not quite the same zero as it was before...

So that's two zeros then. there's the "Real zero", ie can also be expressed as 1-1, whatever. And the "unimagined zero", derived from .... well, not derived from anything, just a kind of primordial, non-existent zero that we can only refer to in the abstract. How about expressing it as 0-0? Does that make sense. I know, how about i-i. That's the square root of -1 from the square root of -1. Hmmm. No, I bet there's a flaw there somewhere. I'd need to ask a mathematician.

You can bet there's other types of zero too, those two are just kinda "philosophical" ones, right off the top of my head. I think a mathematician could come up with another half dozen or so, although they'd be more strictly mathematical in concept probably.



Anything else you wanna ask me?


______________________________________________________________________________
*This is not meant to be insulting. I'm merely pointing out that the size of the human brain is in fact extremely small when compared to the size of the universe. Or the galaxy. Or the solar system. Or the world even. In fact, it's pretty small compared to Mount Everest.

[The Grand Nudger]

The duality of 0? That's idiotic. Every breath you draw to squeeze out thoughts like this is stolen from a worthwhile thought in someone else's head.

[Epimethean]

"So that's whole different kind of zero, innit."

No.