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RE: No problems with atheism then...
August 23, 2011 at 12:48 am
Pad, as far as zero being difficult to understand. Zero as part of a system of arithmetic is one thing, but having nothing in your hand as opposed to something. Pretty easy. How many ears of corn in your right hand roman farmer? 2, and your left? none. They understood a concept of 0, it just hadn't been found to be useful for arithmetic at that point, or called Zero.
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RE: No problems with atheism then...
August 23, 2011 at 5:38 am
(This post was last modified: August 23, 2011 at 5:45 am by Godnose.)
(August 23, 2011 at 12:09 am)Rhythm Wrote: The duality of 0? That's idiotic. Every breath you draw to squeeze out thoughts like this is stolen from a worthwhile thought in someone else's head.
Very poetic.
What existed before the Big bang?
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RE: No problems with atheism then...
August 23, 2011 at 6:18 am
(August 23, 2011 at 5:38 am)Godnose Wrote: What existed before the Big bang?
A tough question with no definite answer. But, you can expand your knowledge on this from here, at least.
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RE: No problems with atheism then...
August 23, 2011 at 6:41 am
(This post was last modified: August 23, 2011 at 7:54 am by Godnose.)
(August 23, 2011 at 6:18 am)Rayaan Wrote: (August 23, 2011 at 5:38 am)Godnose Wrote: What existed before the Big bang?
A tough question with no definite answer. But, you can expand your knowledge on this from here, at least.
I tried that already. No luck! Plus even went a few years back to listen to SH about it here in Embra, and even he didn't have a clue*. But, er, my question was intended to relate to the zero question.
A bit too lateral I guess - particularly for you literal types.
I feel the urge to expand - can't help it. OK ... According to my understanding time (and space) starts at the Big Bang, so actually there is no such thing as "before" the Big Bang, because "before" implies a passage of time and, as I said, time started AT the Big Bang. The answer I was hoping for of course was "Nothing" or "The Void". Then I'd be able to say "Nope", because there weren't even any concepts then - in fact there wasn't even any "then". So that's yet another kind of zero. So now we have three types of zero, all with rather different qualities from each other:
Normal zero (or perhaps "rational" zero is better) ... eg: 1-1, 2-2, 2-1-1, -20+10+5+10-5, etc
Unimaginary zero (or should that be "imaginary zero"?) ... The "thing" to be quantified does not even exist (eg: Vladimarusk the Tamalin - you can't have 1-1 of them if the "them" has never existed).
Voidal zero. ... The kind of zero that exists (or rather doesn't exist) only because there is no context for it to exist within. 
Sh1t! Just thought of another one. OK - here goes. The Big Bang is an explosion right, and we are still living in it (the expanding universe!). So, if it's expanding it must have an edge, and if it has an edge then what is beyond that edge? OK, if you follow that through then you probably get to pretty much the same sort of thing as with the Voidal zero, yes? Nope! Because, of the scale. Think about it. The Voidal zero, by definition, is a tiny wee thing, well less than a tiny wee thing really, whereas the one at the edge of the universe is Big. Very very Big. it has to be, because it is "outside" the universe. So, that's my fourth zero:
Big Zero ... like the Voidal Zero, but Very Very Big.
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*Actually have to moderate that a bit, not really fair to say SH didn't have a "clue". But only clues, or surmises, no definite facts. Because it's beyond the event horizon... phew! I think I need some solace!
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RE: No problems with atheism then...
August 23, 2011 at 7:45 am
(This post was last modified: August 23, 2011 at 7:48 am by Godnose.)
Sorry - got confused (duplicated post somehow)
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RE: No problems with atheism then...
August 23, 2011 at 7:48 am
That's ok, old son: It keeps you right where we expect you to be.
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RE: No problems with atheism then...
August 23, 2011 at 7:58 am
(August 23, 2011 at 6:41 am)Godnose Wrote: I feel the urge to expand - can't help it. OK ... According to my understanding time (and space) starts at the Big Bang, so actually there is no such thing as "before" the Big Bang, because "before" implies a passage of time and, as I said, time started AT the Big Bang. The answer I was hoping for of course was "Nothing" or "The Void". Then I'd be able to say "Nope", because there weren't even any concepts then - in fact there wasn't even any "then". So that's yet another kind of zero.
You can't possibly know that there was no "before" the big bang. Just because the way we perceive our time doesn't mean that there wasn't some equivalent or some kind of different time before that that.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it seems like you are claiming to know that this is so. Which makes you no better than the religious creeps who claim to know God's personality.
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RE: No problems with atheism then...
August 23, 2011 at 7:59 am
(This post was last modified: August 23, 2011 at 8:03 am by Godnose.)
(August 22, 2011 at 7:16 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I'd say that the numerical value of zero is a snap when compared to the mental gyrations needed to come to the conclusion that 3 = 1.
Don't believe 3 = 1 can be done mentally. It has to be physical. Like as to Winston Smith in 1984.
(August 23, 2011 at 7:58 am)frankiej Wrote: (August 23, 2011 at 6:41 am)Godnose Wrote: I feel the urge to expand - can't help it. OK ... According to my understanding time (and space) starts at the Big Bang, so actually there is no such thing as "before" the Big Bang, because "before" implies a passage of time and, as I said, time started AT the Big Bang. The answer I was hoping for of course was "Nothing" or "The Void". Then I'd be able to say "Nope", because there weren't even any concepts then - in fact there wasn't even any "then". So that's yet another kind of zero.
You can't possibly know that there was no "before" the big bang. Just because the way we perceive our time doesn't mean that there wasn't some equivalent or some kind of different time before that that.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it seems like you are claiming to know that this is so. Which makes you no better than the religious creeps who claim to know God's personality.
Sorry, that's my understanding - gained both from reading A Brief History of Time and reinforced by the author himself in Edinburgh a few years ago.
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RE: No problems with atheism then...
August 23, 2011 at 8:06 am
Yes, but you can't KNOW this for sure, yet you talk like you do. It doesn't matter if it is your understanding, it is rather ignorant to argue the way you are.
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RE: No problems with atheism then...
August 23, 2011 at 8:08 am
(August 23, 2011 at 5:38 am)Godnose Wrote: What existed before the Big bang?
Theoretically nothing because all of the mass in the universe was contained in one minute point known as a singularity.
The concept of "before" is reliant on the construct of time. Time only became a factor as the universe expanded from this singularity.
In essence the question is ultimately flawed.
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