Potter to the clay

[Darwinian]

No chunk of forever has gone by unless forever is finite, which by definition it can't be. :p

ooh how about forever being the life span of the universe.

That would be finite.

Also in order to have lived forever you needed to have started living at the beginning.

How are you Dar still got that cold?

Then it wouldn't be forever. In fact, forever can not in itself exist just like infinity.

Semantics much

Anyway, cold has nearly gone, just a bit of stubborn phlegm left.

[downbeatplumb]

Then it wouldn't be forever. In fact, forever can not in itself exist just like infinity.

If the big bang was the start of space and time, as used to be postulated, and there was a similar big crunch that ended with the end of space and time, then surely in that case, forever would cover a finite time?

Hypothetical I know as there is no evidence for a big crunch and there may of been something prior to the big bang. But assuming the above would forever not be finite?

[frankiej]

Big Crunch?
Have you been stealing my cereal ideas?

[downbeatplumb]

Big Crunch?
Have you been stealing my cereal ideas?

I am obsessed with cereals at the moment, I forgot to buy my wheatabix with last weeks shop.

[KichigaiNeko]

Big Crunch?

I thought it was the Gnab Gib!

Damn got it mixed up AGAIN!!

[lucent]

Well, let's examine. There is no authority higher than God, so there is nothing from the outside which could impose restrictions upon what God can do. Therefore, as the only real authority, God has free reign to do what He wants with His creation. His rule is in fact sovereign. The only thing restricting Him would be His own morality.

The only real question is, is God good or evil? If God is evil then there is nothing we can do..we're all doomed. God claims to be good, however, In fact, He says He is goodness itself and there is no evil in Him at all. Are we qualified to evaluate this? Certainly we know the difference between good and evil. However, there are some things people would call God evil for that aren't necessarily evil. For instance, for allowing evil and suffering in the world, or judging people for their sins. The question is, are they calling that evil because its really evil, or is it because they are in rebellion against Gods authority over them? Of course someone who is inclined towards wicked behavior is going to resent an authority which tells them it is wrong.

If God has good and justifiable reasons for these things, for evil in the world, and eternal punishment, then no it wouldn't be evil. However, it is questionable as to whether we are actually capable of evaluating it in the first place. Now, I think the clay and potter analogy is appropiate. The distance between us and God is actually much greater than the distance between the potter and the clay. So, it is really quite absurd for us to think we could judge God. For one, every human being is a hypocrite. None of us have ever lived up to our own standards, let alone Gods standards. So, to judge God when we are ourselves are morally deficient is just hypocripsy. We also have no real idea about what is going on outside of our own minds, or even what is going on inside of them. All we know is what we hear and observe, which is the thinnest slice of the actuality. Even that we cannot be sure about. Without a *lot* more information, it would be impossible to evaluate Gods planning. We would have to be God in order to say whether what God is doing is really right or wrong. For now, from our limited nature, it is just like the pot saying to the potter, what have you done? Ridiculous.

In my apologetic class we are reading te book crazy love by francis chan. It sucks ass. But tommorow we are gonna discuss it. Now chan ususes the passage in the bible which says it is absurd for clay to tell the potter how to shape it. He compares this to our relationship with god saying we have no right to question him an he is free to do as he pleases. Now lets just suppose for a minute this god does exist, doea he truly have the right to treat humans as he sees fit? In my opnion i dont think so. Just because human are capable of feeling and thinking-something clay lacks. However, i havent thought about this in depth. So what are your opnions? Would a divine creator have the authority to do whatever he wanted with his creation? Is it absurd for a creation to question their maker? Again im not saying i believe in a creator i just know this discussion will come up and wanted to see the forums opinion. Thanks.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, let's examine. There is no evidence that god exists. The rest of your post is comprised entirely of your opinions. Well, I think vanilla is better than chocolate, and this absolutely refutes whatever it is you have to say.

[MilesTailsPrower]

If your life is already planned out, than no one is living?

[lucent]

The OP assumed the existence of God in his post. The whole question is predicated on that, so I am confused as to your reply here.

If you want to talk about evidence, we can do so. I will start by saying the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. However, I do think there are good reasons to believe that God exists, simply from a logical standpoint.

Well, let's examine. There is no evidence that god exists. The rest of your post is comprised entirely of your opinions. Well, I think vanilla is better than chocolate, and this absolutely refutes whatever it is you have to say.

[FutureAndAHope]

I was just reading the initial post about the potter and the clay. In a dictatorial sense God would have the power, but not necesarily the right to do as he saw fit. But the good thing from a Christian perspective is God is not a big bully. He is infact as the bible says "Love", there is a verse in Job that says "Should the unjust rule?" - well it is my opinion that however God came to become God, in power over man, got that position because he was infact good. I mean it would take for ever and a day to go over all he scriptures and references that are in the bible about God's mercy, forgiveness, and love toward the sinner. But God is not talking to the clay going you "#$G&* $%#&^", die you stupid "%^%$#@". He is infact planning a good future for each of us, and wants each person to be blessed.

You migh be aware of a verse about Pharoah in Romans, i.e. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." - the verse was one Moses quotes to pharoah saying God had made egypt powerful so he could display the fact God was more powerful than the most powerful nation on earth. He raised up a hard hearted king so he would not let the Israelites go easily, so God could display his power. The response by the apostle to this idea was, sort of like this "Hey is it fair that God causes soem people to be stubborn so he can display his power, is that not unfair", he then goes on to say "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?" - Rom 9:22 So what does that mean. Well he is saying God bore them patiently for many years (great patience). Then when he was sure they were no longer responsive to love, like the devil, he chose for a time to use them to display his power against evil.