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September 2, 2011 at 9:19 am (This post was last modified: September 2, 2011 at 9:19 am by KichigaiNeko.)
(September 2, 2011 at 9:15 am)Rhythm Wrote: And yet strangely your entire belief system is based exactly upon people who claim to have seen god. Claim to have witnessed his miracles. This was their entire argument for belief. We saw it, we touched him. It was very important to them that these things physically happened, and that there was proof that they did. I don't understand why a visit from god is such an off bounds request, and obviously neither did the writers of the NT.
Yup I can get me some dope and have the same "vision" mate...
so fuckin what??
YOU are IT...that is all. Your delusion will dictate how you relate to the world. From there it will either be a path of inquiry or one of blind faith...
next??
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(September 2, 2011 at 9:10 am)salty Wrote: As we know, this whole argument comes down to belief as I feel all the major events in my life point to God and you believe it points to chance.
When I think about it, if I was God, I wouldn't just show up right in front of someone, in person, because my power and presence would simply force them to believe in me. They would have undeniable proof and then they would lean on me showing up in person everytime they have a question or they're going through something. They would "feel" like they weren't connected to me unless they could see me in all my splendor, therfore their faith would be based on sight, which is hardly faith at all...They would then probably create their own notion of what it means to be "saved" by running around and asking everyone, "Have you SEEN God? No..no...I mean have you SEEN him in person?" and then people would think I was showing favoritism by appearing to some in person and not appearing to others. Then my people would be scattered with all these crazy notions of what it means to know me and the lost who can be easily overcome would fall in line and pray night and day to SEE me, just to PROOVE they are mine, instead of praying to learn how to please me by helping and loving others.
Amazing, these things happen even without God appearing in person, people are confused, they're burned, they're lost, they're hurt, they're angry, they're scared, they're hated, they're depressed and they all want to demand answers from a higher power, a power that is all knowing, fully holy and loving and compassionate. They're shaking their fists at him, even begging him to present himself to succumb to their desires of proof because if he LOVED them he would do whatever they wanted. These people have no notion of humilty or understanding. They are asking a completely holy God to bow to their whims, instead of taking a moment to think, "God is so above me, so powerful and pure, I'm not worthy of knowing him, but I hope one day he will see me as worthy." When people humble themselves like this, and feel that it would be an honor to know and be around a God of love and power, then he comes bursting into their lives, showing up in every situation, making himself known because the humble are always exalted. It's the proud that miss the point.
If I was God. I would not appear in person, I may send angels here and there, but I would want my people to have faith in me without knowing for sure by touch, taste, sight, scent or sound that I am real. Instead I would place myself in their lives and let them discover how I have been there the whole time and will continue to be there, and to live within them. If I was God, I would let those who have ears, hear me when I speak, and those that have pride to be lost because they want me to lower myself to their human terms, but the universe was created on my holy terms.
The Kingdom of Heaven will only be filled with people who realize that everything was created on God's terms, that all things good and evil are laid bare before God. He knows of all the injustice that has happened and he will repay all evil to the evil and pardon all sinners who claim the righteousness of Jesus through faith. God is aware of what you feel you need to believe in him, but even moreso aware of the real excuses behind your lack of faith, it's usually the same sin that Lucifer struggled with: obedience.
All that means fuck all to me. Because at the end of it all, it's not the belief, it's not the story. It's the fact that there is no evidence to support any of your assertions.
Quote:As we know, this whole argument comes down to belief
Not for me it doesn't. For me it's down to evidence and credibility. For which your beliefs have none.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
September 2, 2011 at 3:34 pm (This post was last modified: September 2, 2011 at 3:41 pm by salty.)
Evidence. You don't want evidence Ace. I think we went over this.
(September 2, 2011 at 9:15 am)Rhythm Wrote: And yet strangely your entire belief system is based exactly upon people who claim to have seen god. Claim to have witnessed his miracles. This was their entire argument for belief. We saw it, we touched him. It was very important to them that these things physically happened, and that there was proof that they did. I don't understand why a visit from god is such an off bounds request, and obviously neither did the writers of the NT.
You have a good point there. I believe the NT writers needed to be in the presence of God, mentored and taught by him because of their task, yes their faith was based on sight, but their continued movement, their miracles, their guidance, their ministry was made real without the physical presence of Jesus instead the Holy Spirit assisted them.
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Hebrews 11:6
September 2, 2011 at 3:52 pm (This post was last modified: September 2, 2011 at 4:24 pm by Ace Otana.)
(September 2, 2011 at 3:34 pm)salty Wrote: Evidence. You don't want evidence Ace. I think we went over this.
No, it is evidence I want. I'm still waiting to see some. Also I don't remember going over it with you.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
(August 29, 2011 at 4:32 pm)searchingforanswers Wrote: In my apologetics class we are reading the book Crazy Love by Francis Chan. ... Now Chan uses the passage in the Bible where says that it is absurd for clay to tell the Potter how to shape it. He compares this to our relationship with God, saying that we have no right to question him and he is free to do as he pleases.
I have that book. A group of us from church have started reading through it and discussing it. Where in the book does he talk about this?
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
All right, well let's discuss this issue apart from the book, then. "Let's just suppose for a minute this God does exist," you said. "Does he truly have the right to treat humans as he sees fit? In my opinion, I don't think so." Supposing this God exists, WHY does he not have that right? You said you do not think he does but you neglected to explain why.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
(September 5, 2011 at 12:49 am)Ryft Wrote: All right, well let's discuss this issue apart from the book, then. "Let's just suppose for a minute this God does exist," you said. "Does he truly have the right to treat humans as he sees fit? In my opinion, I don't think so." Supposing this God exists, WHY does he not have that right? You said you do not think he does but you neglected to explain why.
That's easy. Human beings are not property. None of us asked to be created, and I don't acknowledge anybody's right over my life.
IF we were created by God and he can control us, then he already is doing what he wants with us. But I wouldn't agree that he has the right to.
I would say he doesn't have the right to treat us in whatever way he likes... A parent doesn't have the right to treat their children whatever way they want, they have to be responsible...
