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God: Proofs of non-existence and existence.
April 3, 2009 at 2:49 am
Let's go through the proofs for and against the existence of god. Both sides are filled with invalid ones so let us find the ones that work and those that don't. The base for the argument should be logical. Yes, I am aware this gives believers a bad start but it is the only thing that makes sense in a philosophical discussion. Rhetoric is obviously allowed but frowned upon.
Let's get the topic started by a proof used for the existence of god. Please note the difference between the proof and my opinion.
The argument sounds:
1. I have an idea of a perfect being (God)
2. In every cause there must be at least as much reality as there is in the effect
3. I am imperfect
4. Given that I am imperfect (3) I cannot be responsible for the idea of perfection that I hold (1)
5. Therefore, given that every cause must be at least as great as its effect (2), whatever caused my idea of perfection (1) must be perfect. Therefore a perfect being exists and this is God who created me.
This proof was presented by Rene Descartes. Opinions?
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RE: God: Proofs of non-existence and existence.
April 3, 2009 at 3:46 am
There is, nor can be, proof of God's existence. Simple. Theists out.
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RE: God: Proofs of non-existence and existence.
April 3, 2009 at 5:46 am
(April 3, 2009 at 3:46 am)fr0d0 Wrote: There is, nor can be, proof of God's existence. Simple. Theists out.
So it is valid to assume there is no god (in exactly the same way as we assume that the moon is not made of green cheese and that little green men in flying saucers are not constantly "buzzing " our Earth) until actual evidence is supplied yes?
Kyu
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RE: God: Proofs of non-existence and existence.
April 3, 2009 at 5:52 am
Why is it that anyone believing in something religious believes that their case is different to any other's? Whether it be a religion, santa claus or the green cheese you mentioned, religious people will forever insist that their belief should be bound by the same rules as anything conflicting.
Surely one cannot get more delusional and unreasonable than this.
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RE: God: Proofs of non-existence and existence.
April 3, 2009 at 6:06 am
(April 3, 2009 at 5:52 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: Why is it that anyone believing in something religious believes that their case is different to any other's? Whether it be a religion, santa claus or the green cheese you mentioned, religious people will forever insist that their belief should be bound by the same rules as anything conflicting.
Don't you mean not be bound?
(April 3, 2009 at 5:52 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: Surely one cannot get more delusional and unreasonable than this.
Indeed.
Kyu
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RE: God: Proofs of non-existence and existence.
April 3, 2009 at 6:15 am
(April 3, 2009 at 6:06 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Don't you mean not be bound?
I do 
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RE: God: Proofs of non-existence and existence.
April 3, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Welcome to the forum, since you didn't bother to say hi you just jumped the gun.
Didn't even need to get to the second line of the 'proof'. The first line assumes a perfect being, the rest of the argument is based on that assumption thus has no value.
This is the problem with trying to prove or disprove a god, I at least have seen no material anything that would suggest there might be a god of any definition so, I can only assume. If I'm making assumptions my argument is pretty much worthless until I can back them up.
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RE: God: Proofs of non-existence and existence.
April 3, 2009 at 4:06 pm
(April 3, 2009 at 5:52 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: Why is it that anyone believing in something religious believes that their case is different to any other's? Whether it be a religion, santa claus or the green cheese you mentioned, religious people will forever insist that their belief should be bound by the same rules as anything conflicting.
Surely one cannot get more delusional and unreasonable than this.
You show me how it isn't different and I'll consider it.
Meantime... why do you insist something that doesn't exist in the realm of discernible proof by definition has to be proved in the realm of discernible proof? No no, it's fine.. of course - you're logic is solid.
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RE: God: Proofs of non-existence and existence.
April 3, 2009 at 4:27 pm
(April 3, 2009 at 4:06 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Meantime... why do you insist something that doesn't exist in the realm of discernible proof by definition has to be proved in the realm of discernible proof?
CORRECTION: Why do you insist something that is claimed doesn't exist in the realm of discernible proof by definition has to be proved in the realm of discernible proof?
The answer of course is simple ... there is no evidence for that which you claim nor for any of the millions of other things similarly claimed to exist in the same or similar "realms". The only things that have EVER been reasonably confirmed to exist are those in the natural universe.
In the end it comes down to this very simple concept ... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, you haven't provided any therefore it is safe to assume that what you claim has no (ZERO, NADA, ZIP) basis in truth and the claimant is either a fraud or deluded.
(April 3, 2009 at 4:06 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: No no, it's fine.. of course - you're logic is solid.
And as I have previously observed, sarcasm works much better when you actually have a valid point ... why don't you try and find one?
Kyu
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RE: God: Proofs of non-existence and existence.
April 3, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Nice piece of circumnavigation Kyu. Christopher Columbus would've been proud.
You can't answer my point so you make up your own. Easier to argue with cliches isn't it.
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