how capitalism breeds a " me " society.

[bozo]

Yesterday in the UK a property auction was held, run by an American company and conducted in an upbeat, high-energy American kind of way.
The lots were all repossessed properties i.e. people, families had been evicted for failing to keep up with their mortgages, as the recession bites deeper.
Thus the predators were there, individuals looking for a bargain and property speculators looking for the same...............all at the expense of the people made homeless after eviction.
The company was charging 10% on the sale price of the lots....so a nice little earner for it!
Moral of the tale? People are not born nasty, capitalism makes it inevitable.

That's a very simplistic way to look at it. Sure, of course there will be people who through no fault of their own cannot pay their mortgage and they will lose out. But at the same time exist people who are nothing but lazy bastards who see no reason to pay their way in life and will do anything to get out of paying a mortgage and whatever else. Capitalism doesn't fix the problem, but I think it's unreasonable to say that it exaggerates it. Lazy people will always exist, and hard-working individuals who want to go somewhere will always exist also.

Capitalism gives people the opportunity to depend on themselves and be responsible for their own welfare. And to a large extent, it weeds out those who are simply irresponsible with the way they live. But as with any system, there will be failures.

Capitalism breeds a "me" society granted, but that "me" society is the one in which you have the right to make decisions for yourself, to decide which career you want, to decide whether you want to be rich and famous or the simple life and a whole lot of other rights that we take for granted.

It's not simplistict it's just an example. From your " lazy bastards " response, I guess it's lost on you.

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Religion,politics and religion are cultural constructs.They reflect the culture which invents them.

None of those inventions has managed to eliminate human selfishness, greed or cruelty as far as I can tell.

Capitalism is a modern invention,only a couple of hundred years old. Pre industrial societies were a lot nastier than capitalism at its most exploitative. I've seen no evidence that capitalism is any worse than any other form of social organisation which has be tried,with the exception of anarchy,in some tribal cultures.

My view is that arguing about "the perfect society" or even "the vastly better society" than a free society based on a market economy is utopian and naive.


The raison d'etre for human society is survival of the genome,not human happiness,nor any lofty ideal or moral value. Morality itself is based on pragmatism and the human propensity to put self interest above everything else..

"Fairness" never enters the equation in any consistent way. Trying to tell others how they 'ought' to behave is a pretty useless exercise,unless you have a lot of power.

As for the victims who've lost their homes due the the current fiasco: Yes,many have been exploited.Just as many are the victims of their own greed and stupidity.OF COURSE the banks have lot of responsibility,but so to do the people who took on credit they could never hope to repay. The victims bear SOME responsibility for the consequences of their own actions.

I argue that people are not born with feelings like greed, selfishness, hatred etc.etc. The society they live in affects their behaviour.

I further argue that capitalism is cruel and that as it approaches its demise it will be akin to barbarism. Before that happens, I hope socialism has replaced it.

I have to say, I never wake up thinking " survival of the genome " is crucial to my wellbeing.

If enough social housing were available to rent, less people would risk taking on big mortgages.
When taking on their mortgage, no doubt the people affected could just about afford it. But we are now in a deep recession and what was affordable has become unaffordable for many. I don't think it right to accuse these people of greed or stupidity. Rather the system has let them down.......and brought out the worst in others.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I argue that people are not born with feelings like greed, selfishness, hatred etc.etc

So far you haven't made an argument, just a romantic assertion.

I've never argued that capitalism is fair or moral. I DO claim that it hasn't made people any worse than they already were. Read a bit of history. Every system ever invented is temporary. Imo the greatest obvious weakness of capitalism is its need for exponential growth to survive. OF COURSE it will eventually disappear.It may evolve into something else,such as an international corporate form of government or collapse into anarchy. No one knows. Whatever form it takes will be based on pragmatism,not morality,just like every form of social organisation in history.From a lifetime of observation I've concluded that there are altruistic acts,many times many, but there are no altruistic people. .

My position is philosophical one called "egoism" supported by a lifetime of observing human behaviour. The feelings you mention are imo all survival mechanism,and probably hard wired.

Human beings remain sentient animals.Our most powerful INSTINCT (that means it's involuntary and usually unconscious) remains that of survival.


Please provide argument/evidence for your position,which so far seems based on the emotionalism of the child,who stamps its little foot and screams "it's not FAIR! Until such time, I'm not really interested in your opinion on the matter. ( no offence)

[bozo]

I argue that people are not born with feelings like greed, selfishness, hatred etc.etc

So far you haven't made an argument, just a romantic assertion.

I've never argued that capitalism is fair or moral. I DO claim that it hasn't made people any worse than they already were. Read a bit of history. Every system ever invented is temporary. Imo the greatest obvious weakness of capitalism is its need for exponential growth to survive. OF COURSE it will eventually disappear.It may evolve into something else,such as an international corporate form of government or collapse into anarchy. No one knows. Whatever form it takes will be based on pragmatism,not morality,just like every form of social organisation in history.From a lifetime of observation I've concluded that there are altruistic acts,many times many, but there are no altruistic people. .

My position is philosophical one called "egoism" supported by a lifetime of observing human behaviour. The feelings you mention are imo all survival mechanism,and probably hard wired.

Human beings remain sentient animals.Our most powerful INSTINCT (that means it's involuntary and usually unconscious) remains that of survival.


Please provide argument/evidence for your position,which so far seems based on the emotionalism of the child,who stamps its little foot and screams "it's not FAIR! Until such time, I'm not really interested in your opinion on the matter. ( no offence)

no offence, but read my post again and counter my arguments in a way I can give some serious consideration to.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

no offence, but read my post again and counter my arguments in a way I can give some serious consideration


I just did just did. Seems I need to clearer:

The philosophical base for my position: Egoism (psychological,rational and ethical)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egoism

Factual: Extensive study of history :

Perhaps begin with the Fertile Crescent, Egypt and the civilisation of the Indus Valley. Then move to to civilisation of the Inca,the Aztec and The Maya. Then to Europe from say the Renaissance to the C17th inclusive.All periods before the rise of capitalism.

Capitalism may indeed bring out and even encourage the worst in people , but it is no responsible for thsoe traits, they've always been there.

I don't accept your basic premise,which is nurture over nature.


If you have some alternative arguments,and observations please present them.If not,that's,fine.

[bozo]

no offence, but read my post again and counter my arguments in a way I can give some serious consideration


I just did just did. Seems I need to clearer:

The philosophical base for my position: Egoism (psychological,rational and ethical)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egoism

Factual: Extensive study of history :

Perhaps begin with the Fertile Crescent, Egypt and the civilisation of the Indus Valley. Then move to to civilisation of the Inca,the Aztec and The Maya. Then to Europe from say the Renaissance to the C17th inclusive.All periods before the rise of capitalism.

Capitalism may indeed bring out and even encourage the worst in people , but it is no responsible for thsoe traits, they've always been there.

I don't accept your basic premise,which is nurture over nature.


If you have some alternative arguments,and observations please present them.If not,that's,fine.

I've made my arguments, I don't comprehend yours, so fine that's fine.