Why I believe in God.

[Skeptical_Nurse]

Religious people sicken me. That is all

[Norfolk And Chance]

Norfolk: Again you mis-state my position. If you have read any of my posts, you will know that I have consistently argued against interpreting the bible literally. I do not argue that the Bible is the literal word of God, only that science does not preclude his existence. Also, stating my face and arse are positionally inverted is neither helpful or accurate.

Listen you're starting to get on my nerves now because you're carrying on like you think you're too clever by half, especially the patronising comments to me stating "if you read any of my posts"...

1) How about YOU read what I posted and follow your own damn advice? - I did NOT say your "face and arse were the wrong way around". That was your chum from god's kingdom Frodo, saying that to ME.

2) If you do not interpret the bible literally, then you have no basis to believe in god, because you're believing your own interpretation of the bible, thus you're making god in your own image. Funny how god always agrees with each believers individual beliefs.

Now this point is not new and you'll have heard it all before - however it is still as pertinent today as it was the first time anybody said it, ever - and I've not yet heard a decent justification for anybody believing in god if they don't take the bible literally as god's word. All I ever hear is "subjective personal experience" and what can only be described as wishful thinking.

---

Allah is nothing like God chadster. Allah is also evil, and Islam defines him in this way.

Hey, I'm not saying that Allah isn't depicted as one evil bastard, but for you to note that he is and not attribute the same to your own god is just, well, madness.

Words cannot describe the contempt I have for your own version of this god delusion.

[chadster1976]

Norfolk: Insisting the Bible is liberal as a precondition for the existence of God is bonkers. That's like arguing a lemur can't exist because it isn't in my daughter's encyclopaedia or flying cars must exist because of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. The existence of anything should never rely on one book. Interpretations of the texts are vital but not empirical. Also, I haven't created God in any image. I believe in God's existence and am not willing to put any constraints upon him.

Allah, God, Jahweh are the same Abrahamic God. How people interpret the writings inspired by him and devise their religious code or law is not necessarily a reflection on God, more on man.

[5thHorseman]

True Chad, but it shows how many of you are fucking nuts.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Norfolk: Insisting the Bible is liberal as a precondition for the existence of God is bonkers. That's like arguing a lemur can't exist because it isn't in my daughter's encyclopaedia or flying cars must exist because of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

No it isn't. You have NO evidence or reason to believe in god. All you have is that damn book laying out his word. That is the only reason anybody has to believe initially, before you bolt on bits that fit your already ingrained belief. Once you establish that belief then try to take the book away and make the belief stand up on it's own, then atheists are perfectly entitled to ask what the hell your belief can be based on? And the answer is always effectively "fuck all".

It is NOT the same as arguing a Lemur doesn't exist because it is not in your daughters encyclopedia. We KNOW Lemurs exist because they are scientifically demonstrable - if a Lemur isn't in a particular book, it's simply an irrelevance. Lemurs are FACT.

However, yeah you're right, arguing god is real based on the bible IS similar to arguing Chitty Chitty Bang Bang is real based on the novel. I'd say that is a theists problem not mine.

The existence of anything should never rely on one book.

Correct, hence I don't believe in god.

Try following your own advice because you've just dismissed your own reason to believe, because like it or not it is based on one book that you don't even take as literal truth. If only you could step outside your bubble and see how this looks to an atheist...it looks bad.

Interpretations of the texts are vital but not empirical. Also, I haven't created God in any image. I believe in God's existence and am not willing to put any constraints upon him.

Meaningless blah, all you've said is you believe because you want to believe, basically.

Allah, God, Jahweh are the same Abrahamic God. How people interpret the writings inspired by him and devise their religious code or law is not necessarily a reflection on God, more on man.

Of course it is a reflection on man, god is non existent.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can I just finish off by thanking you for apologising to me for when you wrongly accused me of saying your arse and face were the wrong way around, and for wrongly accusing me of not reading your posts properly.

It takes a big man to recognise and apologise for an error, and doing this showed that you aren't just trying to win at all costs and realise that fairness to the other debator is as important as winning.

Oh...WAIT.

[chadster1976]

I apologize wholeheartedly for mistakenly accusing you of arse-face related comments.

Let's just clarify something though, my belief in there being a God does not rely on the Bible at all. Religions exists across humanity, with or without religious scriptures. Take away the bible and I still believe in God. I may have a different understanding of him but the bible is not a necessity to believe. As I have stated several times, I see the bible as a guide to life that must be interpreted taking into account the historical and political context in which every page was written.

My belief is not a choice. If you have a red ball, no matter how many times you choose to say it's blue, it remains red and you will still believe it to be so. If, however, it can be demonstrated in a repeatable experiment to be blue and not red, them I would change my belief.

I think we agree that the variations in religion are a reflection on man but that does not logically lead to "therefore, he does not exist".

This is not about winning. This is merely about trying to get you to understand my position. I have already said that I think your position is valid and I understand that when presented with a lack of empirical evidence, people will take a particular perspective, regardless. Yours is atheist, mine is theist. We are not in a position to scientifically prove either way and our attempts at logical resolution are always flawed because we end up being reduced to a "tis" "tisn't" argument. The philosophy I find interesting but I sense you are tiring of it. Like I said about Schrodinger's Cat, God both exists and doesn't exist until we can prove it either way. Until then, you believe he doesn't and I hold to the contrary. I am happy to leave it at that.

[Norfolk And Chance]

I apologize wholeheartedly for mistakenly accusing you of arse-face related comments.

Thank you - I think there is a moral in there about not reading people's posts somewhere - anyhow...

Let's just clarify something though, my belief in there being a God does not rely on the Bible at all.

Indirectly it does rely on the bible, like it or not. You yourself might never have even read the bible for all I know, although I'd guess you might know it well. Belief in god is brainwashed into young folk through community and it's hard to shake off.

But let us be under no illusion, the root cause of christianity and belief in god IS the bible. No scripture = no christian god concept, and you would not be aware of that concept to even follow, let alone believe in. And neither would I be here saying "no way"

Religions exists across humanity, with or without religious scriptures.

Do they? I'm not aware of any outside the major god believing religions? I stand to be corrected of course, but I'm not interested in piss ant little cults that may not have a book or anything like that, because they are not important enough to aknowledge.

Take away the bible and I still believe in God. I may have a different understanding of him but the bible is not a necessity to believe.

When everybody believes and you are part of that community then I can probably concede that you only need to listen to what your peers say and follow what they believe - bible not necessarily required. There are so many, they must be right...

WHY do you believe god is real then?

Realistically, claiming to not have the bible as a reason to believe doesn't strengthen your position to believe.

As I have stated several times, I see the bible as a guide to life that must be interpreted taking into account the historical and political context in which every page was written.

It's just a book of stories.

My belief is not a choice.

True. My non belief is not a choice, I just don't buy god. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't, because I require evidence.

If you have a red ball, no matter how many times you choose to say it's blue, it remains red and you will still believe it to be so.

Nobody would have a demonstrably red ball and choose to say it's blue unless there was something wrong with them. A ridiculous notion actually, because you KNOW the red ball is red, not BELIEVE it to be red.

If, however, it can be demonstrated in a repeatable experiment to be blue and not red, them I would change my belief.

But you wouldn't believe a ball to be a different colour to what it was, because you'd know what colour it was. And no repeatable experiment could make the ball a different colour. Belief = irrelevant in this example = theistic waffle.

I think we agree that the variations in religion are a reflection on man but that does not logically lead to "therefore, he does not exist".

Never said it did. It is logical to assume he doesn't exist because there is no evidence, and you know that standard atheistic viewpoint anyway.

This is not about winning. This is merely about trying to get you to understand my position.

I really can't understand a theistic perspective, it is alien to me, and not natural. It isn't based in any reality that I know, and that's the problem. Sorry, but there you have it.

I have already said that I think your position is valid and I understand that when presented with a lack of empirical evidence, people will take a particular perspective, regardless. Yours is atheist, mine is theist.

I'm glad you accept my view as valid, however I cannot accept unevidenced belief as valid.

We are not in a position to scientifically prove either way and our attempts at logical resolution are always flawed because we end up being reduced to a "tis" "tisn't" argument.

The problem for an atheist is you can't prove the non existence of a non existent entity other than to point out that there is unsurprisingly no evidence to back up the non existent being. The exact same can be said about the tooth fairy, I cannot prove the non existence of her either - BUT - I KNOW there is no tooth fairy and don't need to prove that. Guess what? god = the same. It's up to theists/god to prove it to me.

Until then, he's made up, and I CAN say that from a position of significant strength no matter how much you protest that neither of us can prove ourselves to be right.

The philosophy I find interesting but I sense you are tiring of it. Like I said about Schrodinger's Cat, God both exists and doesn't exist until we can prove it either way. Until then, you believe he doesn't and I hold to the contrary. I am happy to leave it at that.

I'll never tire because as far as I'm concerned, if I ever start one theist on the path to deconversion - it was all worthwhile.

[fr0d0]

Frodo, look at where Islam comes from. It is the same God, redefined by the words of Mohammed.

Redefined and re-invented completely. Totally incompatable to the Christian OR Judaic God. Those two are the same God. Allah is another animal altogether. Look at the 99 attributes of Allah. Allah is part evil, capable of evil. The God you claim belief in _by definition_ is the embodyment of good. He cannot be evil. Allah is not this God.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Frodo, look at where Islam comes from. It is the same God, redefined by the words of Mohammed.

Redefined and re-invented completely. Totally incompatable to the Christian OR Judaic God. Those two are the same God. Allah is another animal altogether. Look at the 99 attributes of Allah. Allah is part evil, capable of evil. The God you claim belief in _by definition_ is the embodyment of good. He cannot be evil. Allah is not this God.

Yawn. By definition of whom? Some bloke?

God is a fuckstick and so is allah. Read the bible. Incest, slavery, gay bashing you name it, it's in there. Did you a) miss those bits, or b) ignore them?

The hadiths promise you 80,000 servants and 72 virgins, you've backed the wrong horse mate. Islam all the way for me.

[Faith No More]

What AGAIN FNM? And you already know because you've told me so before... His natural and special revelation, the xtian bible being the special kind. I'll mark you down as unsurprised

Just trying to keep you on your toes.