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RE: My own moral + ontological argument.
November 18, 2011 at 10:13 am
I'll try to make a syllogism out of it.
P1. For morality to be real, it must have an eternal basis.
P2. Morality is real.
C. Therefore, there is an eternal basis.
I'm too busy to take the time to make the rest of it comprehesible, and it probably should have stopped here, anyway.
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RE: My own moral + ontological argument.
November 18, 2011 at 10:51 am
(This post was last modified: November 18, 2011 at 10:53 am by Norfolk And Chance.)
Why must morality have an eternal basis to be real?
Why can't humans make up morality as we go along - as we have done.
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
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RE: My own moral + ontological argument.
November 18, 2011 at 3:56 pm
(This post was last modified: November 18, 2011 at 3:57 pm by Mystic.)
(November 18, 2011 at 10:51 am)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: Why must morality have an eternal basis to be real?
Why can't humans make up morality as we go along - as we have done.
When I mean morality is real, I don't mean whether it exists, but if there is really a "should" or "better" way to act, and it's not merely just an opinion.
I showed by thought experiment, if a Creator existed and didn't have knowledge of everything, would it be able to create morality and make it up? I think making it up would make it arbitrary and it would cease to be morality as we know it.
Also, your assuming God doesn't exist in your question really. Because if you believe God exists, and is the source of morality, then the reason morality must have eternal basis, can be very well explained because it is that way by it's nature of having God as it's basis.
Suppose God is the Source of morality, and gives out his morality to others, in degrees, creating with a link to his own reality, with eternal basis, would not the nature of that morality be such that it's based on eternal reality? Whom says it wouldn't display that...
Suppose free-will doesn't exist, there is no free-will, everything is determined by laws of nature and free-will is an illusion. I would say that would make morality unreal, because if there is no free-will, then morality as we know it is unreal, it's a delusion as well.
The same I can say is true of it needing eternal basis, and we can see that, because that is simply how it is and it's in nature and it's displayed in it's nature.
Of course to really argue against this, you would have to show God isn't the source of morality.
Other wise if he is, then it's not odd that morality would display having eternal higher source as it's basis. If it's a light from God, and linked to God, and divine instinct linked to his essence, why wouldn't it display properties of being sourced in eternal higher reality?
It's like the same case of God being properly basic knowledge. If God exists, why wouldn't he give us properly basis knowledge of his existence and attributes?
If morality has a eternal basis, why wouldn't morality display that as property?
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RE: My own moral + ontological argument.
November 18, 2011 at 3:59 pm
(This post was last modified: November 18, 2011 at 4:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You know whats always fun in these discussions are the amount of implied assumptions.
"An eternal basis" is shorthand for god, for example. The trouble here is that I could grant you "an eternal basis" of a "real" objective morality, in the hypothetical. But what exactly does that have to do with god? Nothing, nada. Even in the hypothetical you still make a leap of faith. There are two bad arguments going on at once here. Not only are we equivocating "eternal basis" and god, we're also implying a "first cause". You're arguing both sides of the fence simultaneously. Either "objective morality", "real morality"(whatever you want to call it honestly) exists from eternity, or it was created at a finite time. Why not dispense with reason entirely? It seems so tedious to try and rationalize faith.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: My own moral + ontological argument.
November 18, 2011 at 4:00 pm
(November 18, 2011 at 3:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: "An eternal basis" is shorthand for god, for example. The trouble here is that I could grant you "an eternal basis" of a "real" objective morality, in the hypothetical. But what exactly does that have to do with god?
You didn't read the whole argument. I made an argument why the eternal basis must be God.
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RE: My own moral + ontological argument.
November 18, 2011 at 4:07 pm
(This post was last modified: November 18, 2011 at 4:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
LOL, No, I did. You made an argument as to how there must be an "eternal basis" for morality. You then argued that this was god. Fine, god is eternal basis. You're only substituting words here. I think we could ask the peanut gallery what god is like and we'll see if this new definition can stand up to scrutiny?  That's the trouble. It's a terrible argument, but what if we just cede the entire thing? Then what?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: My own moral + ontological argument.
November 18, 2011 at 4:27 pm
(November 18, 2011 at 4:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: LOL, No, I did. You made an argument as to how there must be an "eternal basis" for morality. You then argued that this was god. Fine, god is eternal basis. You're only substituting words here. I think we could ask the peanut gallery what god is like and we'll see if this new definition can stand up to scrutiny? That's the trouble. It's a terrible argument, but what if we just cede the entire thing? Then what?
I don't understand. What do you mean, then what? Also, I stated I don't think anyone whom didn't believe in God would be convinced by the argument.
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RE: My own moral + ontological argument.
November 18, 2011 at 5:27 pm
This argument shouldn't be compelling to the faithful either. Just my two cents.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: My own moral + ontological argument.
November 18, 2011 at 6:05 pm
The standard moral argument is:
If there is no God, then there is no objective morals (morality isn't real).
There is objective morals.
Therefore God exists.
And a lot of theists do find this argument sound.
My argument instead of just saying God starts with it having an eternal basis. I think this is a better approach, because I also showed a thought experiment with God existing and morality not being eternal, and I think we intuitively see a problem with that.
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RE: My own moral + ontological argument.
November 18, 2011 at 7:20 pm
If there is no objective morals (morality isn't real), then there is no God.
There is no objective morals.
Therefore god does not exist.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
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God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
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Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
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