Believe:

[Giff]

I think this thread start to bore me a little bit...

[Edwardo Piet]

Ha!

Post somewhere else then (or do whatever).

[Giff]

A intence fight is needed, which could give this thread more intrest...to me at least.



But if I will be on topic do I just wonder what design you are talking about Pippy?

Oh yeah, I found out that there is also a repeating pattern of repeating patterns. Another part of the design that makes me smile.

Also you just think and assume all the time when I read your posts. You are just creating your own personal truth to make you feel compfteble with the world, life itself and the universe.

Why not trying to find answers thru science instead?

[Pippy]

Hey,

Giff. It is too bad your getting bored with this thread, it pains me deeply to hear. I am kind of bored with it too, I feel like you guys don't really care what I think, don't really respect my 'right' to think what I will. It's OK, I don't want you too care. If you want to know what I think, mostly, aside from EvF, I am very unimpressed by the lack of critical thinking or right action on this board. I think most that have been arguing with me aren't very smart, and act very rude a lot of the time. But it does not matter what I think. I also (still) get the impression that you are not listening. Giff, before when you wrote:

Also like above does this show that you wish and hope more then thinking reasonible. You wish there is some meaning of life, just something you hope. But nothing more then a happy daydream.

I was baffled. You were responding to my small paragraph about how I am attempting to come to conclusions completley regardless of what I want to think. I cannot do much better in explaining this than I have. I try to see the world through reason and science and logic. If you read that I am in a daydream, that my hopes play in it at all, then you are not hearing what I am saying. I am getting tired of saying something, having someone say 'See you said white, so you must have meant black!' and then I have to repeat the statement and the process.

In another vein, I am free to admit that I am not perfect, that I am not always right. Do I wish there is some meaning to life any more than you wish there is not? Do we all not make up our own minds? I admit I don't know for sure in the same sense you don't know for sure. I think that is a strength. Your conclusion is not the only one, you are not just plain 'right'. Neither am I.

The design I was talking about was the inherit design in the systems of life. You don't really seem to be reading, or understanding because you are asking questions that I think should have been clear all along. I just think and assume all the time, yes. Do you, Giff, know? Well than god-Giff, tell me what you know, because I only have ideas and you must be omnipotent! If you think I am creating personal truth, fine. I hear and appreciate your opinion. I think you are clearly having trouble reading and responding to what I am writing. I worry for your state-of-mind, you might just be an idiot.

Please, try to find something valid and original to say. I dislike repeating myself, and you read things I write and think I am saying the exact opposite of what I am.

Thank you for sharing.
-Pip

[Edwardo Piet]

@ Pip - Oh, sorry Pip...somehow I managed to completely miss your last response to me..apologies.

Back,

EvF, you have been so polite, and asking very honest questions with a clear attempt only to understand me. I feel badly that I am not doing a very good job making it all make sense to you. Everything I do is kind of off the top of my head.

So long as you are trying, that is all one could ask

I apologize for making you ask more than once, and it is a valid query. I believe in the objective god (the one I don't know much about). I believe in it (them) because I have been shown (have learned) enough about the world to see the patterns repeat far too much to have any randomness, anything but (duh-duh-duh) intelligent design.

I'm sure this could all be explained though..coincidences are inevitable...many many coincidences can happen to simply count as evidence (or reasons to believe, or whatever, since you're not so keen on that word) for ANYTHING 'Supernatural', 'Paranormal' or 'just plain weird'..but it's not evidence and I don't see how it's a rational reason to believe that those things (or God(s)) actual exist(s)? It could apply to so many things..besides - it's often how the mind interprets the coincidences - not just the coincidences.

Coincidences (repeating patterns, etc), don't count as evidence (or rational reasons(s) to believe, etc) of the supernatural (Or "God(s)" or whatever)... I mean for a start; it could apply to so many things..

I ask 'Why?' (like a philosopher) about the hypothetical reasons behind being alive, living in this situation. I know most on this site would instantly say 'There is no why'

I would simply assume that until there is evidence (or a genuinely objective rational reason to believe) to believe there is an absolute, ultimate 'Why?' or meaning - that there isn't one. It is the default position. I wouldn't postulate an ultimate meaning given without any evidence (yeah I know you don't like that word; but I don't see any other rational reason to believe in something OBJECTIVE, other than - evidence. Doesn't have to be empirical (although it basically always is in the matter of existence so far), evidence is evidence. Just need evidence (for a rational reason to believe something)).

And all that I have seen and learned is unexplainable as a random outcome. Far, far too engineered.

Seems (to me) like that's just you not being able to personally believe it, it seems... - I do not know of any evidence (/proper reasons ) to believe that the universe is designed or engineered..

Whatever the universe came from I think would have to be at least RELATIVELY simple, relative to the rest... because if you think the UNIVERSE looks complicated and engineered, imagine how complicated God (/ the collective GodS) would have to be to be there right from the beginning to create it all?

God(s) creates a much bigger problem than (S )he/it can solve..

I know of no evidence of design - and the designer would have to be more complex...

You talk of 'bottom up'...well I am with that only in the sense that I think complexity arises from simplicity..and that whatever the 'first cause' or first THING was....it would have to be very simple and totally unintelligent and mindless - and everything arose from that...

Intelligence and complexity arises later - due to the laws of the universe etc..
Where are these laws from? Well the thing is - if they came from GOD(S) - then God would have to be an AWFUL lot more complex than THEM, so once again - (S)he/it creates a much bigger problem than (I'll just say "it" to simplify) --IT can solve.

May be a problem is that I use discrediting language on myself so often. I will slip in (with brackets) the little voice that says 'I think' or 'I might be wrong' and 'only to me'. That is because i am trying to be honest, as I have done most of my life.

Well I do believe honesty is certainly a good thing. In my experience (at least) the vast vast majority of the time

I believe in the objectivity of god (there are only objects and subjects, if humans are to be a subject and not merely an object than something else needs to be the object).

well, SORT OF going by that I guess fair enough BUT...why do there have to be any 'subjects' why the 'plan'? And why does the first THING (or 'cause') have to be a "God" as in an intelligent (or superintelligent) being or force? Why can't it start with something simple and then the rest follows (however it happened)...like some kind of singularity such as 'the big bang'?

It is more complex to bring God into the picture cos as I said he/she/it creates a much bigger problem than he/she/it can solve.

I say it is a personal belief from years of conditioning. As much as I guess most of you have been treated poorly because of your beliefs, I attend that I am treated very poorly for mine as well.

Sorry to hear that. I personally have been very lucky in that sense.

I just don't live in the bible belt anymore.

I can't help but say that that's good to hear.

Very secular here.

cool

I think it is absolute, but I'm not gonna try to make others think that if they don't want to.

Good to have a "believer" of some shape or form, who's so polite and isn't forcing things but just discussing about his/herself, etc, and for a learning experience, etc. (I'm not entirely sure if you are a boy or a girl?)

Oh yeah, I found out that there is also a repeating pattern of repeating patterns. Another part of the design that makes me smile.

Where/how did you learn this? I'd like to know.

What do you think this is supposed to be? Life?

I don't know of any reason to believe that it's ultimately SUPPOSED to be ANYTHING..
More recently I would say I view life like this (personally)..

I've known many who say life is here 'to be lived'..but I think that can put a futile pressure like - "I'm supposed to LIVE...how do I do that? How do I live? How do I life?"

When I see it like this..the fact is we ARE living...or we couldn't be having this conversation..

I TRY not to 'tell myself' to appreciate life and put on that pressure...but that also means - if I DO tell myself...I accept that ANYWAY too...for that is what I am doing...

Sorry if it's hard to understand. For it is hard for me to explain, kinda.

I guess it's basically like..I try not to worry about worrying...but I don't worry myself with the trying - I don't worry if I worry anyway. For that's just how I'm (currently) 'flowing'.

I realized along the path that I can make most anything 'true'. I can lie and manipulate and argue any point, opposing points even. So if I can make 'god' make sense and 'not-god' as well, which should I choose? I think the one that leads me to be happier, healthier and a much better world citizen (not better than you or anything, better than I was before).

Reality is reality whether you like it or not. Your own 'life' (how you experience reality) may change depending on your beliefs...but reality is always there to shake you and wake you back up (and it doesn't always do it in a nice way either).

It is what it is (reality, that is).

I should stop writing, it is more of a rant than I intended. Thank you kindly for being patient with me, and I hope this helps some.

No problem, nice discussing with you thus far.

It will likely just cause a thousand more relevant questions...

Well I'll do my best lol. Over 2000 posts so far so I guess 1000 QUESTIONS isn't impossible lol

But seriously, nice discussing with you.

EvF

[g-mark]

What do you truely believe EVF? In less that 100 words please.

[Giff]

Pippy the reason I get bored is you have very long posts and therefore can't read everything you write. So you are correct on that point. But I'm not an english speaker so that's why it hard to understand words I not yet fully understand. So thats thre reason why I haven't read everything, but I tried to read as much I can.

However what I have read from you is it correct to say you assume and fantasies alot. You have self admited that.

You also assume that everyone can read everything you write. I don't assume people here understand swedish. But you make an asumption that everyone does understand what you write, and because you think I can't keep up with you do you therefore concider that I might be an idiot. If it where in my own language would be able to find this thread more intresting to read and formulate myself in a better way.

However

You asked me if I don't assume, if I know. I sure don't know everything, as you said. But I'm not like you that make up things for what the unknowns could be. Even though you say your not sure, don't know and so on do you still say that there must be a god. You are not concidering that there isn't which is more logical to think since there's no sign of something like that.

I don't assume things that's not reasonible, and a god is not reasonible. Its just an invetion by people, by a human mind. Like every other fantasy. It's not reasonible to think the Matrix is real or that evertything is just a dream.

You want there to be a god, and then you start think that there is because want there to be. It's not that you think that and that shows that there could be a god of some sort or gods.

Seems like you think that I don't want there to be god. I wish there where, some higher puropose with life and so on. But there is no evidence and nothing to say that there should be. No scientific, no mathematical or theortical evidence in anyway. Seems like those who beleive in god/gods or a higherpower just have to say "I think there is god" and think that is enough.

There certanily huge amount of things we don't know, but that doesnt mean that a part of that unknown would he a god. Like everything that have been unkown will it be discovered and then it will be part of the natural world. Everything is science, but first we just need to discover it.

Everything can be explained by science, everything we have discovered so far can be explian by it, and it's logical to assume that things we discover in the future will too.

Even a god would be explained by science since nothing can live outside of the scientific world, nothing can exists outside the reality and the scientific principles.

Religion doesn't have any answers. There's nothing that religion have contributed to the world. It's just slowed everything down.

[Edwardo Piet]

What do you truely believe EVF? In less that 100 words please.

I don't really understand the question, Gmark, BECAUSE it's so vague. Could you elaborate please? Be more specific? I can't list every single thing I believe exists or "Believe in".

I certainly don't believe in God, that's for sure.

EvF

[Lotus]

My goodness. Would that i had been here from the start for now i would spend far too long hopping to back to previous posts to pose and respond to things i find pertinant. So just to throw my hat into the ring sort of speak, i would like to say that much respect should be given to Pip for sticking to his guns and attempting to maintain posture and EVF for creating\encouraging legitamte discussion.

So for now i'd like to say that i have read the "russel's teapot" story it seemed rather garbled in a sense to me. so my question then is. While there is no solid proof, that you accept, for the exsistence of god, What specific proof do you have that there is no god? Now i do not mean the fact that we can prove the things in our world are made by specific processes (evolution for one, as a rudementary example). What i mean is how can you argue that something else didnt design the process of evolution?

And as small point to finish: Would the process of evolution slowing changing us, not suggest that indeed there is a plan. Which then would beg the question who designed/created the plan?

-Lotus
"Life Is Short - Death Is A Transition"

[Edwardo Piet]

The only real evidence we need of NO God is that there is no evidence OF God. If that can be called evidence. No evidence is needed to DISbelieve something if there is no evidence TO believe it in the first place.

You need a reason to believe first . You need evidence for that first. Before that then you have no reason - no evidence.

Otherwise you might as well just believe in anything and everything (literally) because it cannot be absolutely disproved - OR be 50/50 on all those matters, etc. Because you can't expect to have evidence AGAINST something if there is no evidence FOR it in the first place. The default is skepticism - you need a reason TO Believe first. Otherwise you end up believing or being 50/50 or whatever, about things when there is absolutely no reason that you know to believe in them. And no evidence you know of . So why believe?

You need a reason to BELIEVE first, not DISbelieve. And you need evidence OF first. That's the rational way I mean. Otherwise there is no real filter and you might as well 'believe in anything'.

@ the question of evolution. I don't see how evolution slowly 'changing us' (to whatever degree) would imply any plan whatsoever. Why would it? Evolution changes things WITH, OR without a plan. That's what evolution DOES and IS. It changes - it EVOLVES.

And....I know of no evidence of any 'plan' so I assume that there isn't one.

EvF