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Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
#31
RE: Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
(December 3, 2011 at 11:21 am)lucent Wrote: False. If he ceases to believe that God exists because he cannot know it to be true, he must also cease to disbelieve it, because he also cannot know it to be untrue.

Atheism is belief that God does not exist. Agnosticism is the belief that we cannot know if God exists or not. They are contradictory beliefs and mutually exclusive.

What the bloody hell is wrong with you?!
I happen to be an agnostic atheist. Atheism and agnostism are not mutually exclusive. You just can't accept the fact that people can reject your bullshit and have no burden of proof.

Theos: Belief in god
Atheos: Without belief in god.

It doesn't get any simpler!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
Reply
#32
RE: Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
(December 3, 2011 at 11:17 am)LastPoet Wrote: You really are dense huh? Atheism only exists as long as a theistic claim exists. Infact, I said it elsewhere that atheism will only end when no one believes in god. YOU make the claim, I reject it due to the lack of meeting the burden of proof.

Atheism will also end when everyone believes in God. Again, it isn't the default position. Since you say it isn't true, you have a burden of proof. It isn't merely a reaction to a position, it is itself a position.

(December 3, 2011 at 11:26 am)Ace Otana Wrote:
(December 3, 2011 at 11:21 am)lucent Wrote: False. If he ceases to believe that God exists because he cannot know it to be true, he must also cease to disbelieve it, because he also cannot know it to be untrue.

Atheism is belief that God does not exist. Agnosticism is the belief that we cannot know if God exists or not. They are contradictory beliefs and mutually exclusive.

What the bloody hell is wrong with you?!
I happen to be an agnostic atheist. Atheism and agnostism are not mutually exclusive. You just can't accept the fact that people can reject your bullshit and have no burden of proof.

Theos: Belief in god
Atheos: Without belief in god.

It doesn't get any simpler!

As a former agnostic, I know what agnosticism is. There is no such thing as an agnostic atheist. An agnostic says he doesn't know, which means he neither believes or disbelieves. An atheist says he doesnt believe. They are mutually exclusive. To say you are both is logically absurd. You're actually just an atheist who is intellectually honest enough to say that you couldn't really know, but refuses to take that belief to its logical conclusion and abandon your atheism.
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#33
RE: Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Gnosticism and agnosticism regards knowledge i.e. if its possible to know if god exists. Gnostics claim its possible to know that a god may or may not exists, while agnostics reject that claim. Atheism is the same regarding theism, but a question of belief. You, as a christian are a gnostic theist, you claim its possible to know god and it exists. I am an agnostic atheist, I reject the claim that its possible to know of god and reject claim that it exists. If I were a gnostic atheist you'd be right, I'd have the burden of proof to show how I know that no god exists. The most of the people here are agnostic atheists, some are gnostic, and you'd get no argument from them regarding that they have the burden of proof.
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#34
RE: Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
(December 3, 2011 at 11:27 am)lucent Wrote: As a former agnostic, I know what agnosticism is. There is no such thing as an agnostic atheist. An agnostic says he doesn't know, which means he neither believes or disbelieves. An atheist says he doesnt believe. They are mutually exclusive. To say you are both is logically absurd. You're actually just an atheist who is intellectually honest enough to say that you couldn't really know, but refuses to take that belief to its logical conclusion and abandon your atheism.

I'm an atheist because I don't believe in god, I'm an agnostic because I don't know whether there is a god or not. It's not hard to grasp. It's not difficult to understand. Also, disbelieve/lack of belief/no belief is pretty much all the same thing. I don't believe in god, just as I don't believe in Santa. I'm not claiming anything.

Agnosticism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive. I'm both. I don't know whether there is a god or not (agnostic) but at the same time I'm unconvinced that such a being exists (atheist). Get it now?

Gnosticism and Agnosticism are based on knowledge. Theism and Atheism is based on belief/lack of.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
Reply
#35
RE: Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
lucent Wrote:Atheism will also end when everyone believes in God. Again, it isn't the default position. Since you say it isn't true, you have a burden of proof. It isn't merely a reaction to a position, it is itself a position.

Yes, please provide the proof that you've been failing to provide for 2000 years. Mabe god could just show up? And witch god? Or gods? You really are so blinded by religion that you can't see you're presenting a false dichotomy? Gods aren't the only possible belief. If you can't understand this, I'm done with you.
Reply
#36
RE: Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
(December 3, 2011 at 11:38 am)LastPoet Wrote: Gnosticism and agnosticism regards knowledge i.e. if its possible to know if god exists. Gnostics claim its possible to know that a god may or may not exists, while agnostics reject that claim. Atheism is the same regarding theism, but a question of belief. You, as a christian are a gnostic theist, you claim its possible to know god and it exists. I am an agnostic atheist, I reject the claim that its possible to know of god and reject claim that it exists. If I were a gnostic atheist you'd be right, I'd have the burden of proof to show how I know that no god exists. The most of the people here are agnostic atheists, some are gnostic, and you'd get no argument from them regarding that they have the burden of proof.

That is *not* what gnosticism is. You don't get to make up definitions for what gnosticism means simply because it appears to be an opposite to agnositicm. Gnosticism is in fact Christian mysticism and has nothing to do with knowledge about whether God can be known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Agnosticism has a few definitions and one of them is that you simply don't know, and it has nothing to do with whether you could know or not.

This idea you have about "gnostic" and "agnostic" atheists is logically incoherent If you reject the idea that you can know God exists, then you also reject the idea that you can know if he doesn't exist. You cannot therefore also believe He doesn't exist.

(December 3, 2011 at 11:43 am)Ace Otana Wrote:
(December 3, 2011 at 11:27 am)lucent Wrote: As a former agnostic, I know what agnosticism is. There is no such thing as an agnostic atheist. An agnostic says he doesn't know, which means he neither believes or disbelieves. An atheist says he doesnt believe. They are mutually exclusive. To say you are both is logically absurd. You're actually just an atheist who is intellectually honest enough to say that you couldn't really know, but refuses to take that belief to its logical conclusion and abandon your atheism.

I'm an atheist because I don't believe in god, I'm an agnostic because I don't know whether there is a god or not. It's not hard to grasp. It's not difficult to understand. Also, disbelieve/lack of belief/no belief is pretty much all the same thing. I don't believe in god, just as I don't believe in Santa. I'm not claiming anything.

Agnosticism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive. I'm both. I don't know whether there is a god or not (agnostic) but at the same time I'm unconvinced that such a being exists (atheist). Get it now?

Gnosticism and Agnosticism are based on knowledge. Theism and Atheism is based on belief/lack of.

You're right..it's not hard to grasp:

Agnosticism: You neither believe or disbelieve in God
Atheism: You disbelieve in God

You can't be both. You try to resolve the contradiction by saying atheism is a lack of belief, but as we've already discussed, atheism is the belief that God does not exist. You basically have to murder logic to hold this belief.

Your problem I think is that you can't separate the question of God from religion. I think the reality is, you are agnostic to a deistic God, and you don't believe what religion says. Disbelieving in religion doesn't make you an atheist. Whether God exists or not is a separate question from whether any particular religion is true.
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#37
RE: Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
(December 3, 2011 at 12:09 pm)lucent Wrote: Agnosticism: You neither believe or disbelieve in God
Atheism: You disbelieve in God

You can't be both. You try to resolve the contradiction by saying atheism is a lack of belief, but as we've already discussed, atheism is the belief that God does not exist. I'm just amazed that you are satisified with this sloppy reasoning and aren't really interested in the truth, or concerned that you are murdering logic to hold these beliefs.

Your problem I think is that you can't separate the question of God from religion. I think the reality is, you are agnostic to a deistic God, and you don't believe what religion says. Disbelieving in religion doesn't make you an atheist. Whether God exists or not is a separate question from whether any particular religion is true.

Your problem is that you can't accept the real definition of atheism. You don't get to redefine things just because you disagree with them. I lack belief in god or gods, there for I'm an atheist. You can accept it or deny it. Change nothing you have.
I am an agnostic atheist.

There is no contradiction, only in your dense mind.
Gnostic and agnostic is a matter of knowledge. Theism and Atheism is a matter of belief or lack there of regarding god. Get over it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
Reply
#38
RE: Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
I can, because there are much more credible explanations to our existence than your god lucent.

"lucen Wrote:That is *not* what gnosticism is. You don't get to make up definitions for what gnosticism means simply because it appears to be an opposite to agnositicm. Gnosticism is in fact Christian mysticism and has nothing to do with knowledge about whether God can be known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Lol, are you reading the same article? You have a serious reading comprehension problem, you know?

"lucen Wrote:This idea you have about "gnostic" and "agnostic" atheists is logically incoherent If you reject the idea that you can know God exists, then you also reject the idea that you can know if he doesn't exist. You cannot therefore also believe He doesn't exist.
You truly are a confused sod, like I said before belief in god or disbelief isn't a dichothomy, you can believe many things besides god, numbnuts. Knowledge, i.e. either you know or don't know, its a dichotomy, unless your unfamiliar with P^~P=false, if so, Ill give you a beating, so you know the difference between being in pain and not in pain. You mabe had a point, if the only Pssible belief for our existence is your god, yet you fail, and fail badly to understand this.
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#39
RE: Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
(December 3, 2011 at 12:33 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: Your problem is that you can't accept the real definition of atheism. You don't get to redefine things just because you disagree with them.

It is the standard definition of atheism, I have redefined nothing. It's in the dictionary.

(December 3, 2011 at 12:33 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: I lack belief in god or gods, there for I'm an atheist. You can accept it or deny it. Change nothing you have.

A lack of belief does not define atheism. By saying you lack belief, you are giving me an autobiographical statement of your psychology. It has nothing to do with the question of whether God exists. It's not a view, or something that is true or false. In the same sense, my cat is an atheist.

(December 3, 2011 at 12:33 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: I am an agnostic atheist.

You are either an agnostic, or an atheist. I think you can plainly see the two contradict eachother unless you redefine atheism to mean something it is not. Please watch some of those videos I posted, both of them from atheists, and open your mind.

(December 3, 2011 at 12:33 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: There is no contradiction, only in your dense mind.
Gnostic and agnostic is a matter of knowledge. Theism and Atheism is a matter of belief or lack there of regarding god. Get over it.

You can be agnostic and believe God can be known, there is no dichotomy there between gnostic and agnostic. That is plainly false. Theism and Atheism are two positions on the question of whether God exists.
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#40
RE: Atheism's Definition - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Quote:A lack of belief does not define atheism. By saying you lack belief, you are giving me an autobiographical statement of your psychology. It has nothing to do with the question of whether God exists.
Really? I've checked the dictionary and it states that an atheist is one who disbelieves in a god or gods. Supreme beings and such. Why? Which dictionary are you using?

Quote:You are either an agnostic, or an atheist. I think you can plainly see the two contradict eachother unless you redefine atheism to mean something it is not. Please watch some of those videos I posted, both of them from atheists, and open your mind.

Quote:WIKI: Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism.[1] Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact.[1][2] The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but claims that the existence or nonexistence of such is unknown or cannot be known.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

Quote:You can be agnostic and believe God can be known
Now that is a contradiction.

Quote:Theism and Atheism are two positions on the question of whether God exists.
Gnostic theist: One who believes in god but also claims to know that a god exists. Agnostic theist: One who believes in god but states that he/she does not know or cannot know whether a god exists or not. Gnostic atheist: One who does not believe in god but also claims that he/she knows there is no god. Agnostic atheist: One who does not believe in god but also states that he/she does not know or cannot know that a god does not exist.

You really are dense aren't you?


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
Reply



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