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RE: What we lack?
December 10, 2011 at 4:11 pm
Fair enough then.
We disagree, we'll leave it at that. You ask if atheism can have a spirituality, I say no. And if Sam Harris says it can, that makes no difference to me, because he is no more an authority on spirituality than you or I. The only thing we have in common is atheism.
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
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RE: What we lack?
December 10, 2011 at 6:14 pm
(December 10, 2011 at 4:11 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: Fair enough then.
We disagree, we'll leave it at that. You ask if atheism can have a spirituality, I say no. And if Sam Harris says it can, that makes no difference to me, because he is no more an authority on spirituality than you or I. The only thing we have in common is atheism. Are you still thinking of this whole realm of spirituality pertaining to ghostly figures and magical beings? It isn't that; what spirituality means is the feelings and emotions which drives us - that which innumerable men of faith believe does not exist in atheists. If you don't think that can't exist, then I think you are under a grave misunderstanding, or I may be misunderstanding you gravely.
When I was introduced to atheism, if anything, it added a new depth to existence. It is much more beautiful than any religious conviction. The atheists are concerned with the Here and Now - faith is concerned with the There and After, a place which doesn't exist.
Again, by spiritual I don't mean it in the religious sense; more in the secular sense.
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RE: What we lack?
December 10, 2011 at 6:19 pm
What you are talking about is not spirituality as far as I can tell.
Spirituality, and also the definition of it, seems to be simply nonsense anyway. I want no part of it and reject that I can be an atheist and spiritual.
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
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RE: What we lack?
December 10, 2011 at 6:25 pm
(December 10, 2011 at 6:19 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: What you are talking about is not spirituality as far as I can tell.
Spirituality, and also the definition of it, seems to be simply nonsense anyway. I want no part of it and reject that I can be an atheist and spiritual. It's just semantically different. It has two definitions: one is the religious sense, which, I guess, many atheists don't believe and rightly so; the other is the spiritual sense which pertains to emotion and feeling - this latter definition has nothing to do with spirits.
And Sam Harris doesn't talk about the former example - he doesn't obviously believe in it.
It reminds me of when a person says 'soul.' You have the religious definition, which is a 'ghost', simply. The other just means the core of your being, but that wouldn't be accurate - we all seem to know what is meant by the secular sense of 'soul.'
They're two completely different things.
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RE: What we lack?
December 10, 2011 at 6:33 pm
"Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or an alleged immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”[2] Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation, are intended to develop an individual's inner life; spiritual experience includes that of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm.[3] Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life.[4] It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world."
I mean read that. It is nonsense. It is meaningless. Unmeasurable. It is ill defined and apparantly means several different things. It is touchy feely, fuzzy, feel good new age bollocks. That is what it is.
Connectedness with a larger reality? You what? Might as well believe in the sky daddy. Meditation? Prayer? To whom??? The nothingness of nothing? What would you think about when meditating? There must be some sense of belief of a purpose or plan or deity? Discover the essence of ones being? What?
If we are just talking about how we interact/empathise with one another and possibly have a bigger purpose as a species, that is not "spirituality", that is just "what it is" . Spirituality is an unmeasurable, unprovable concept. As being an atheist means I require evidence, then I cannot be spiritual because it is only a fuzzy, ill defined concept to me, with certainly no evidence to support its reality.
There is just no way I could say "Well yeah I'm an atheist, but I'm also spiritual". It would be preposterous. Atheism and spirituality contradict because one is a non belief based on lack of evidence, the other is a belief in something with no evidence.
Spirituality = file under deism.
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
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RE: What we lack?
December 10, 2011 at 6:57 pm
(This post was last modified: December 10, 2011 at 7:06 pm by JollyForr.)
Before you so swiftly discard them definitions, you must first understand them from a secular viewpoint. You seem to be looking at them with the religious idea of spirituality in mind, whereas the viewpoint I'm talking about does not touch the religious viewpoint - I'm talking about the spirituality that Sam Harris talks about in the video I posted here.
I'll use Sam Harris' explanations as an example. When he mentions spirituality, he means the secular ways in which we can, by discovering what we are capable of, be in a state of deep introspection, and profound states, which are like the religious feelings, yet completely secular, for they do not claim to be in touch with a 'spirit' world. He means by ways of meditation, we can learn new things, similar to those of the religious mystics. Meditation, in Sam Harris' view is not communicating with this spirit world, which doesn't exist; it is a way in which we can discover things about ourselves.
You gravely misunderstand. Again, by spiritual it does not mean a spirit world! It wouldn't be preposterous for an atheist to say what you mentioned. If it was seen as preposterous by you, it would only because you haven't understand where the atheist is coming from, and what the atheist means by 'spiritual.'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8U5J_LV3...re=related
Again, watch this to know where I'm coming from. It doesn't owe the feelings to any spirit world, because they don't exist, but rather to reality.
Let Sam do the talking.
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RE: What we lack?
December 10, 2011 at 7:14 pm
Humanist would be a better word than spiritual.
Like it or not, spiritual invokes thought of spirits and beliefs, not of any secular thinking.
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
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RE: What we lack?
December 10, 2011 at 7:19 pm
(December 10, 2011 at 7:14 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: Humanist would be a better word than spiritual.
Like it or not, spiritual invokes thought of spirits and beliefs, not of any secular thinking. Yeah, I think we're both thinking of the same thing, but just using different words to describe it. I think by substituting 'Humanism' in there reflects how one can meditate without attributing that to a 'spirit' world, in the religious sense. It fits completely within reality.
A lot of people say spiritual meaning what we both have in mind: the transcendental feelings which all humans share. It's just the progress of language, which has made the word acquire a different meaning.
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RE: What we lack?
December 10, 2011 at 7:21 pm
OK, I've watched Sam Harris for 4 minutes now and I'm bored. He's just rambling on about what he personally thinks meditation is and what it achieves, however he is talking as if it is fact when really it is only his own opinion. The word spirituality has not been mentioned so far either...
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
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RE: What we lack?
December 10, 2011 at 7:33 pm
It isn't just his opinion; when a sprinter has finished a race, the sprinter will become exhilarated, and exasperated, thus the sprinter has acquired a different feeling and a different mental state. This is what meditation is; it is a way of becoming different, and discovering different states, but is not necessarily transient, like the first example. It does not claim to be in touch with a spiritual realm, and I think this is where you misunderstand; it is fact, because it happens; it happens completely within the realms of reality and it is self-evident; the sprinter will not need to provide any evidence to himself that by sprinting one becomes exasperated. Do you see where I'm coming from?
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