My (probably unpopular) opinion on arab refugees

[henryp]

Why would that make you a simpleton to not have conflicting streams of thought?  Seems like many people here view this as a fairly black and white topic.

Opposing an extreme does not make one an extremist on the opposing end.

I wasn't trying to make any implications, just gathering information.

[Jesster]

Opposing an extreme does not make one an extremist on the opposing end.

I wasn't trying to make any implications, just gathering information.

And I was answering your post to grant you information. You're welcome.

[henryp]

Seems like many people here view this as a fairly black and white topic.

Because it is. One of the select few where there aren't any grey areas. Plain and simple. If you refuse to help people in mortal danger you're not a very nice person. That should be obvious, regardless of where these people come from.

For sure.  The thing you and I differ on, is the obligation to be a nice person.  I think it's a make believe guideline.  Maybe it's my lack of empathy that makes me an outlier, but then again, I don't feel like an outlier when I look at how people behave.

[abaris]

For sure.  The thing you and I differ on, is the obligation to be a nice person.  I think it's a make believe guideline.  Maybe it's my lack of empathy that makes me an outlier, but then again, I don't feel like an outlier when I look at how people behave.

If the shoe fits, who am I to argue? I for one strive to be a decent person. That's one thing in my life I can't change. Don't want to change for that matter. But point stands. It's one of the select few black and white issues.

[Amarok]

For sure.  The thing you and I differ on, is the obligation to be a nice person.  I think it's a make believe guideline.  Maybe it's my lack of empathy that makes me an outlier, but then again, I don't feel like an outlier when I look at how people behave.

If the shoe fits, who am I to argue? I for one strive to be a decent person. That's one thing in my life I can't change. Don't want to change for that matter. But point stands. It's one of the select few black and white issues.

indeed he simply does not get that this is a black and white subject

[Mister Agenda]

And this will never get anywhere, because your life is based on a series of premises that are essentially hardwired.  Premises so ingrained that you can't not project them onto me, because you can't empathize 

As an admitted sociopath, you seem confused about which if us would have trouble empathizing.

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That's why people keep saying "Historical fallacy!"  People can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea of not believing everyone should act in accordance with your own beliefs.  I'm not saying anything is right or wrong.  I'm not trying to justify anything.  I'm just saying how things are.  As a practical observation of humanity.  Russia can bomb a bunch of Syrians in Aleppo if that's what they want to do.  Your moral objections don't matter to anyone but yourself.

They keep saying it because it's a fallacy, and you keep making it. The discussion is about what we should do, not about how things are. We don't have to do things the same way we used to, no matter how practical your observations are. That my moral objections don't matter to anyone but me is easily tested: does anyone else reading this care about my moral objections?

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It's no surprise so many of you are depressed.

Unsupported assertion, dismissed as such.

[GUBU]

Their parents protested and the compromise was that they could still wear colorful clothes, but would also wear hijab. Since moving away (mostly to New York state) some of them have gone back to scarves.

Bold mine, I think this is an interesting point. It's actually something I've heard quite a few times before when a Muslim woman has started dressing more conservatively. I think it's an important thing to highlight, because the stereotype usually goes something like "did your Dad make you wear that?". While that is sometimes the case, there are also men who literally hate seeing their female family members pressured into dressing so conservatively by the mosque.

I think the problem in the West though is that Western media only allows this one kind of "authentic Islam" to come out, this image of an excessively conservative pious father and a veiled mother and daughter, and that gets typecast as being "authentic" Middle Eastern culture. Both the Right wing and the regressive Left promote this for different reasons, for scapegoating and for "we have to respect their culture" respectively.

The problem is, that's the exact same narrative the Islamists use to tell those Somali girls that they are not "true" Muslims because they're dressed too modern. So on both sides, even in the West, Muslims and Muslim-perceived people have no space to explore, and selectively choose the degree to which they want to practice (or not practice at all).

Pretty much 90% of the mosques and imams in the west have been bought out by the deifiers of Wahhab and their al-Saud allies. Hence why the extreme pressure on young muslim women to go ultra conservative and the young muslim men to join al-Qaeda and more recently Daesh. If western governments truly wanted to stop islamic extremism and terrorism they wouldn't allow Saudi money be spent so freely in their countries.

[Regina]

Pretty much 90% of the mosques and imams in the west have been bought out by the deifiers of Wahhab and their al-Saud allies. Hence why the extreme pressure on young muslim women to go ultra conservative and the young muslim men to join al-Qaeda and more recently Daesh. If western governments truly wanted to stop islamic extremism and terrorism they wouldn't allow Saudi money be spent so freely in their countries.

Oh I definitely agree with that too, good post

But I think a large part of undoing the damage which has already been done is through narratives. There needs to be less attention and authority given to "Muslim scholars" who just defend the faith, and more supporting the Muslims and ex-Muslims who want genuine open conversation about radicalism, secularism and social progessiveness.

[henryp]

And this will never get anywhere, because your life is based on a series of premises that are essentially hardwired.  Premises so ingrained that you can't not project them onto me, because you can't empathize 

As an admitted sociopath, you seem confused about which if us would have trouble empathizing.

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That's why people keep saying "Historical fallacy!"  People can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea of not believing everyone should act in accordance with your own beliefs.  I'm not saying anything is right or wrong.  I'm not trying to justify anything.  I'm just saying how things are.  As a practical observation of humanity.  Russia can bomb a bunch of Syrians in Aleppo if that's what they want to do.  Your moral objections don't matter to anyone but yourself.

They keep saying it because it's a fallacy, and you keep making it. The discussion is about what we should do, not about how things are. We don't have to do things the same way we used to, no matter how practical your observations are. That my moral objections don't matter to anyone but me is easily tested: does anyone else reading this care about my moral objections?

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It's no surprise so many of you are depressed.

Unsupported assertion, dismissed as such.

1) Empathy has two applications.  There's understanding how and why someone feels a certain way by looking at things from their perspective.  That I enjoy doing, and partake in it as sincerely and fully as possible.  And then there's caring about those people/feelings, which I don't really do. 

2) When the tangent started, the tangent wasn't about what we should do.  The tangent was about how I described what people do.  I said the reason arguments about refugees never go anywhere, is because people disagree on human life being valuable.  If you don't believe human life is valuable, then you can just kill the people in Aleppo, and that's fine.  

Folks didn't like that, because they personally don't think it's fine, and if they don't personally think it's fine, thems the rules for everything in the universe for all time.  I disagreed.

I kept trying to show how limited the scope of people's moral objections were via examples (in time and circumstance), but that's when everyone kept crying "Historical Fallacy" even though, I wasn't claiming anything was right or wrong.   Just that their moral objections were and continue to be mostly irrelevant to almost everything.

What's crazy, is a big part of this forum, is just a big fuck you to the moral objections of religious folk.  Religious people say "You shouldn't do that!"   And atheists say, "Fuck off.  It's fine, because you're moral objections don't dictate our behavior."  It's almost creepy how exactly the same the two things are, and nobody seems to see it.  It's, frankly, surreal.

3) I've seen you on here plenty.  The depression thing is anecdotal, at the same time, I've seen a couple times when someone posts "I'm depressed" and people pile into that thread like a clown car with their own "I'm depressed too" stories.

[Catholic_Lady]

As an admitted sociopath, you seem confused about which if us would have trouble empathizing.

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They keep saying it because it's a fallacy, and you keep making it. The discussion is about what we should do, not about how things are. We don't have to do things the same way we used to, no matter how practical your observations are. That my moral objections don't matter to anyone but me is easily tested: does anyone else reading this care about my moral objections?

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Unsupported assertion, dismissed as such.

1) Empathy has two applications.  There's understanding how and why someone feels a certain way by looking at things from their perspective.  That I enjoy doing, and partake in it as sincerely and fully as possible.  And then there's caring about those people/feelings, which I don't really do. 

Honest curiosity at this point. Do you ever feel sorry for anyone? Like when you see those commercials on TV about sending money to poor children in Africa or something. And they show all these little children living in poverty. Does it hurt your heart in any way to see that?

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Oh and for the record, I don't have depression.