Reduced to a Piece of Clay: False Humility and Human Dignity

[John V]

No, it does not make sense to believe that. So, these versions that you refer to but for some reason don't name or quote are suspect.

1. (2 Samuel 24. 1 Chronicles 21) Killed 70,000 men because King David held a census.
2. (Job 1:12-19) Killed all Job’s children and expected his wife to be happy. Just forget the 10 children she gave birth to and watched grow up as if children are component parts that can be replaced when damaged.
3. (Exodus 21:7) Gave fathers instructions on how to sell their daughters into sexual slavery.
4. (Deuteronomy 22: 23,24) Ordered women to be put to death if they were raped in the city where they could have cried for help. Since they didn’t cry out that makes them accomplice of this crime against their husbands.
5. (Mark 4: 11,1 2)Jesus told his disciples that he spoke in parables so those outside would not be able to understand, repent and be saved.
6. (Genesis 11) Biblical god confused people’s language when they were getting along and working peacefully, just because he was intimidated by what humans could accomplish and he didn’t know that they couldn’t build a tower to heaven.
7. (Numbers 31: 12-18) Became murderously angry when the Israelites had mercy on the people he had told them to kill.
8. (Numbers 31 We just saw how Moses ordered them to kill the women and boys and keep the young girls for their own sexual pleasures) Ordered Moses to slaughter the people of his father in law who had taken him in and given him his daughter when he was running from justice after killing an Egyptian.
9. (Leviticus 25: 44-46) Told his people not to treat their foreign slaves the same way they treated Jewish slaves
10. (Galatians 3:22* , Job 1:22** )Holds all humans personally and eternally accountable for the sin of one man, but does not want to be held accountable for his own actions.
* So we were put under sin just so we can have faith in Jesus?  Would you cut and burn your child just so you can practice your first aid skills?

** So it’s a sin to charge god with his own actions? God makes a deal with Satan and Job blames his mother for giving him birth (Job 3:11,12).

How does that follow from what I said? Can you walk me through the logic?

[SteveII]

I just wanted to clarify. You don't go to hell for a sin or series of sins. You go to hell for one thing: you have rejected God.

... Which is a sin.

But I think you're being a little less than honest here, in that you're omitting the rationale behind all of that. You go to hell because god sacrificed himself for your sins, or so the story goes, and this exempts one from the punishment you're in for by default- because of all the sins- which is hell. That's how it goes in your storybook, anyway.

The question is, though: do you think your clarification resolves any of the problems I pointed out in my previous post? Is the situation made better by that? I can't imagine how.

I think the clarification is important because your argument is that for any petty, finite sin x, you go to infinite hell. While it is not reasonable that stealing a pack of gum should have infinite consequences, the rejection of God is a sum total of your life and since the relationship with God could be infinite, the rejection is the same.

[Rhondazvous]

1. (2 Samuel 24. 1 Chronicles 21) Killed 70,000 men because King David held a census.
2. (Job 1:12-19) Killed all Job’s children and expected his wife to be happy. Just forget the 10 children she gave birth to and watched grow up as if children are component parts that can be replaced when damaged.
3. (Exodus 21:7) Gave fathers instructions on how to sell their daughters into sexual slavery.
4. (Deuteronomy 22: 23,24) Ordered women to be put to death if they were raped in the city where they could have cried for help. Since they didn’t cry out that makes them accomplice of this crime against their husbands.
5. (Mark 4: 11,1 2)Jesus told his disciples that he spoke in parables so those outside would not be able to understand, repent and be saved.
6. (Genesis 11) Biblical god confused people’s language when they were getting along and working peacefully, just because he was intimidated by what humans could accomplish and he didn’t know that they couldn’t build a tower to heaven.
7. (Numbers 31: 12-18) Became murderously angry when the Israelites had mercy on the people he had told them to kill.
8. (Numbers 31 We just saw how Moses ordered them to kill the women and boys and keep the young girls for their own sexual pleasures) Ordered Moses to slaughter the people of his father in law who had taken him in and given him his daughter when he was running from justice after killing an Egyptian.
9. (Leviticus 25: 44-46) Told his people not to treat their foreign slaves the same way they treated Jewish slaves
10. (Galatians 3:22* , Job 1:22** )Holds all humans personally and eternally accountable for the sin of one man, but does not want to be held accountable for his own actions.
* So we were put under sin just so we can have faith in Jesus?  Would you cut and burn your child just so you can practice your first aid skills?

** So it’s a sin to charge god with his own actions? God makes a deal with Satan and Job blames his mother for giving him birth (Job 3:11,12).

How does that follow from what I said? Can you walk me through the logic?

If you can't follow the logic here then there is nothing I can do to help you until you first graduate from junior high school..

[John V]

If you can't follow the logic here then there is nothing I can do to help you until you first graduate from junior high school..

As I suspected, your post does not follow logically from my post which you quoted. You were just spamming a red herring.

[Rhondazvous]

1. (2 Samuel 24. 1 Chronicles 21) Killed 70,000 men because King David held a census.
2. (Job 1:12-19) Killed all Job’s children and expected his wife to be happy. Just forget the 10 children she gave birth to and watched grow up as if children are component parts that can be replaced when damaged.
3. (Exodus 21:7) Gave fathers instructions on how to sell their daughters into sexual slavery.
4. (Deuteronomy 22: 23,24) Ordered women to be put to death if they were raped in the city where they could have cried for help. Since they didn’t cry out that makes them accomplice of this crime against their husbands.
5. (Mark 4: 11,1 2)Jesus told his disciples that he spoke in parables so those outside would not be able to understand, repent and be saved.
6. (Genesis 11) Biblical god confused people’s language when they were getting along and working peacefully, just because he was intimidated by what humans could accomplish and he didn’t know that they couldn’t build a tower to heaven.
7. (Numbers 31: 12-18) Became murderously angry when the Israelites had mercy on the people he had told them to kill.
8. (Numbers 31 We just saw how Moses ordered them to kill the women and boys and keep the young girls for their own sexual pleasures) Ordered Moses to slaughter the people of his father in law who had taken him in and given him his daughter when he was running from justice after killing an Egyptian.
9. (Leviticus 25: 44-46) Told his people not to treat their foreign slaves the same way they treated Jewish slaves
10. (Galatians 3:22* , Job 1:22** )Holds all humans personally and eternally accountable for the sin of one man, but does not want to be held accountable for his own actions.
* So we were put under sin just so we can have faith in Jesus?  Would you cut and burn your child just so you can practice your first aid skills?

** So it’s a sin to charge god with his own actions? God makes a deal with Satan and Job blames his mother for giving him birth (Job 3:11,12).

Rhondazvous,

Have you ever looked in the Clementine Homilies in Chapter XX - Some Parts of the Old Testament Written to Try Us ?

So this guy Clement realized that the Bible was not enough to make people believe that 2 + 2 = 8, and decided to help god out with a more convincing argument. And you think if I would but read this then I too will agree that the wonton slaughter of thousands of human beings has its place in our spiritual education.

No, my friend, when your faith in god isn't shaken by such atrocities, all it proves is that the Stockholm Syndrome holds true to this day.

[Rhondazvous]

If you can't follow the logic here then there is nothing I can do to help you until you first graduate from junior high school..

As I suspected, your post does not follow logically from my post which you quoted. You were just spamming a red herring.

In your post you pointed out that I had not documented the chapters and verses of the scriptures I had mentioned. I came back and did just that. Every chapter and every verse. Now it is up to those reading this thread to decide for themselves. In doing so, I did exactly what I intended to do.

[John V]

In your post you pointed out that I had not documented the chapters and verses of the scriptures I had mentioned. I came back and did just that. Every chapter and every verse. Now it is up to those reading this thread to decide for themselves. In doing so, I did exactly what I intended to do.

Incorrect. In my post I pointed out that you had not cited the Bible versions which render the Roman verse as "expecting me to act like a lifeless piece of clay."

And BTW it's not Romans 9:5, it's 9:20.

[Thomas Kelly252525]

Rhondazvous,

Have you ever looked in the Clementine Homilies in Chapter XX - Some Parts of the Old Testament Written to Try Us ?

So this guy Clement realized that the Bible was not enough to make people believe that 2 + 2 = 8, and decided to help god out with a more convincing argument. And you think if I would but read this then I too will agree that the wonton slaughter of thousands of human beings has its place in our spiritual education.

No, my friend, when your faith in god isn't shaken by such atrocities, all it proves is that the Stockholm Syndrome holds true to this day.

Rhondazvous,


My understanding is that a person may think after reading the chapter that false things said about God may have been put in The Bible by someone, deliberately with malice to mislead people.

Do you enjoy watching horror films ?

---

[Neo-Scholastic]

But nay, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, “Why hast thou made me thus?”

Does it make sense to believe that god created me with all these wonderful faculties and then turned around expecting me to act like a lifeless piece of clay (as some versions render this verse)?

To me the verse is simply pointing out the wide gulf between an infinite Creator and the finite creation.

[madog]

Sin is sometimes described as a sickness. To put it another way, let's say I'm infected with the zombie virus, not a zombie (yet) just a carrier/someone who has the virus that can indeed infect others. Now, should I be allowed to co mingle with the rest of society or should I be separated??
 

If sin was a sickness, then it was a caught from an apple "God" left unprotected in his garden.

I know with children not to leave poison laying around regardless of whether I warned them or not ...

And even if one of my children drank a poison that I had an antedote for, I wouldn't be saying "Tell daddy you love him" or you won't get the antedote