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RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
November 18, 2016 at 10:18 am
(November 18, 2016 at 10:15 am)Little Rik Wrote: (November 18, 2016 at 9:56 am)pocaracas Wrote: "all kinds of things" includes "clear and sharp account of an experience"...
I don't know where you ever learned about logical statements... but I think you should try harder.
I am so so sorry Poc but I forgot to tell you that I am an expert in parodies. 
Expert as in you are one?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
November 18, 2016 at 10:20 am
(November 18, 2016 at 10:15 am)Little Rik Wrote: (November 18, 2016 at 9:56 am)pocaracas Wrote: "all kinds of things" includes "clear and sharp account of an experience"...
I don't know where you ever learned about logical statements... but I think you should try harder.
I am so so sorry Poc but I forgot to tell you that I am an expert in parodies.
Oh.... hey guys, we got a Mel Brooks, over here!!
May the Schwartz be with you
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RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
November 18, 2016 at 10:29 am
(November 18, 2016 at 10:12 am)Alex K Wrote: (November 18, 2016 at 9:50 am)Little Rik Wrote: Wrong. 
Physiology never meant to be a science that study our consciousness and it is our consciousness that determine an NDE or nothing at all.
If I would be God I wouldn't care less about people physiology.
All I would care is whether people are ready or not for an NDE and it is their consciousness that would tell me that. 
The argument that similar brain physiology -> similar brain function is a plausible explanation for similar experiences is valid, whether "physiology explains consciousness" seems beside the point.
Sorry Alex but you make a mess of your so called logic.
In your initial post you imply that because we humans got the same physiology is natural that we may have the same experiences but here we are talking about NDEs which are not determined by similar physiology but by our consciousness.
Physiology can not determine whether or not we may have an NDE experience.
Now you come up with more trifle that explain absolutely nothing.
How sad! 
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RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
November 18, 2016 at 1:00 pm
(November 18, 2016 at 9:31 am)Little Rik Wrote: (November 17, 2016 at 2:20 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Except that the brain is not a car engine. The brain can last up to 5 minutes without oxygen before it starts to die. It's entirely possible and logical that as parts of the brain are starved of oxygen, a feeling of euphoria and hallucinations occur.
Suppose that you are correct.
Hallucinations however are far far from an account that is clear and sharp even after years.
Seriously? You don't think a hallucination like that, where someone thinks they've visited the afterlife, wouldn't stick in their mind for a long time afterward? Not to mention the fact that their memory will make them remember it how they think they remembered it, not necessarily exactly how it happened, especially after retelling the story to others many times.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
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RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
November 20, 2016 at 5:06 pm
Generally, no. NDE experiences have been described by those who have them as being hyper-real (more so than actual life), a quality not associated with hallucinations produced by schizophrenia or drug trips (DMT might be the exception).
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RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
November 20, 2016 at 5:33 pm
Not in my experience with hallucinogens. They feel very real indeed and significant. Never had an auditory one but according to that Origin of Consciousness book those should be particularly compelling.
N-S,
I'm more interested to know what you think is so compelling about the idea of a supernatural. My hunch is it goes to the mind/matter distinction. The supernatural is built on the idea that a divine mind is primary and matter secondary. From our point of view as conscious beings in the world, what is real (matter) and what is noise in our minds is a real question. But don't we all assume that what minds/consciousness encounter by way of perception is the real world? Whatever coloring each creature's perceptual/cognitive array may impart, isn't it the real world which they are reporting to us? I don't think my mind is 'creating' anything. Do you think the divine mind is creating anything? If so, it is very different than the mind of every living thing.
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RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
November 20, 2016 at 7:18 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2016 at 7:19 pm by Cyberman.)
Before we can possibly make a conclusion about the authenticity of NDEs, let alone their implications for all sorts of bolt-on presumptions, it is vital to eliminate more mundane options first. All of them, including hypnagogic experiences; which I can personally attest are completely convincing. And well understood.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
November 20, 2016 at 9:15 pm
Agree completely.
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RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
November 21, 2016 at 12:26 am
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2016 at 12:26 am by robvalue.)
It's again the problem of using feelings and experiences as evidence. You can be as convinced as you like that an experience was exactly as it seemed, and had the significance you think it does, yet be utterly wrong. My memory has been completely wrong, when I've been totally convinced, even about mundane things.
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RE: Question about the whole NDE concept and Dr. Jeffrey Long
November 21, 2016 at 9:41 am
(November 18, 2016 at 1:00 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: (November 18, 2016 at 9:31 am)Little Rik Wrote: Suppose that you are correct.
Hallucinations however are far far from an account that is clear and sharp even after years.
Seriously? You don't think a hallucination like that, where someone thinks they've visited the afterlife, wouldn't stick in their mind for a long time afterward? Not to mention the fact that their memory will make them remember it how they think they remembered it, not necessarily exactly how it happened, especially after retelling the story to others many times.
You start with the wrong foot Tom.
You presume that NDEs are hallucinations.
Hallucinations are blurred visions and the recollection of an hallucination lose power as the time goes by.
That is not the case with NDEs experiences.
It is just the opposite.
Read some of them and then tell me if those experiences can be blurred visions and lose power after years that they happened.
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/...counts.htm
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