(November 17, 2016 at 1:23 am)Violeta-1998 Wrote: I am currently an agnostic, and I do believe in evolution, the big bang, I am a big fan of Richard Dawkins, Laurence Krauss, Hawking, just to name a few atheists. I think that for the most part, science does its job when explaining the universe, and the world in general. However, the concept of Near Death Experiences and Out of Body Experiences cause me to scratch my head. Recently, Dr. Jeffrey Long published a book where he analyzed 1600 cases of NDEs and he claimed that they were all strikingly similar, regardless of cultural differences. For example, many people reported seeing a bright light, feeling a lot of love, meeting deceased relatives, having a life review. I am wondering if anyone on this site ever read the Dr. Jeffrey book proof of afterlife? In his book, he even debunks the ideas of the brain hallucinating, and the idea of chemicals being released in the brain to cause these experiences. About 95% of participants thought that these experiences felt more real than real life, and hallucinations cannot feel that real. Also, many claim to see A god, but without a particular title. If 1600 experiences are very similar, would you say that it could mean that these are in fact snapshots of an afterlife? I just don't know how they can be so consistent, and how they can be so life changing if they are not real. 
People, please go easy on me! This is my first day and I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I just want to know your opinion on Dr. Jeffrey Long, and on NDEs and OBEs in general!
Thanks,
Violeta :-)

The best "evidence" for NDE's is from Sam Parnia's AWARE study, which changed its goals mid way through the study, because the original test of putting a card with a series of numbers in a place in the room where it couldn't be seen other than an out of body experience was getting no hits, where there was a sum total of one NDE (according to Parnia) which was a man, a year after his cardiac arrest, recalling medical details that he could have gotten from watching an episode of ER (which had all genuine, top of the range equipment, none of it turned on).

I had a good link on the whole thing a while back, but I erased it, and now can't even find the article on google. If I do I'll post a link.

Edit: found it. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...t-so-much/

Even if they can prove that the person really was dead and came back to life, all that proves is that if a person regains conscious within a given period of time, his faculties will return their function with the same memories that he had before. That doesn’t prove that the conscious exists apart from the body. To do that they’d have to communicate with the consciousness outside the body. Don’t know what kind of controls they’d use to do that.

Whoa! Might have been a little hasty. Just saw a movie that would seem to indicate there is something beyond our flesh and blood. I think this is how NDE's must work.


https://youtu.be/895PZQJK5TM

(November 17, 2016 at 6:29 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(November 17, 2016 at 1:23 am)Violeta-1998 Wrote: I am currently an agnostic, and I do believe in evolution, the big bang, I am a big fan of Richard Dawkins, Laurence Krauss, Hawking, just to name a few atheists. I think that for the most part, science does its job when explaining the universe, and the world in general. However, the concept of Near Death Experiences and Out of Body Experiences cause me to scratch my head. Recently, Dr. Jeffrey Long published a book where he analyzed 1600 cases of NDEs and he claimed that they were all strikingly similar, regardless of cultural differences. For example, many people reported seeing a bright light, feeling a lot of love, meeting deceased relatives, having a life review. I am wondering if anyone on this site ever read the Dr. Jeffrey book proof of afterlife? In his book, he even debunks the ideas of the brain hallucinating, and the idea of chemicals being released in the brain to cause these experiences. About 95% of participants thought that these experiences felt more real than real life, and hallucinations cannot feel that real. Also, many claim to see A god, but without a particular title. If 1600 experiences are very similar, would you say that it could mean that these are in fact snapshots of an afterlife? I just don't know how they can be so consistent, and how they can be so life changing if they are not real. 
People, please go easy on me! This is my first day and I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I just want to know your opinion on Dr. Jeffrey Long, and on NDEs and OBEs in general!
Thanks,
Violeta :-)

The best "evidence" for NDE's is from Sam Parnia's AWARE study, which changed its goals mid way through the study, because the original test of putting a card with a series of numbers in a place in the room where it couldn't be seen other than an out of body experience was getting no hits, where there was a sum total of one NDE (according to Parnia) which was a man, a year after his cardiac arrest, recalling medical details that he could have gotten from watching an episode of ER (which had all genuine, top of the range equipment, none of it turned on).

I had a good link on the whole thing a while back, but I erased it, and now can't even find the article on google. If I do I'll post a link.

Edit: found it. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...t-so-much/

Let us not forget how Dr. Parnia summarised his long study.

He said..........there is no evidence for or against NDEs therefore more study is needed.  

(November 17, 2016 at 2:20 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:

(November 17, 2016 at 10:53 am)Little Rik Wrote: I personally trust qualified doctors when they say that the brain is 100% off.
As a vehicles could not move when the fuel is cut off also the brain can not possibly work when his fuel (blood) is cut off.
Why trying to pretend that something can work when the fuel is cut off?
Crazy idea not supported by science as well.  

Except that the brain is not a car engine.  The brain can last up to 5 minutes without oxygen before it starts to die. It's entirely possible and logical that as parts of the brain are starved of oxygen, a feeling of euphoria and hallucinations occur.

Suppose that you are correct.
Hallucinations however are far far from an account that is clear and sharp even after years.

I suggest you to read the hundreds of NDEs experiences so you can understand the difference between an hallucination and a real experience that a brain in that state could not formulate.  

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/...counts.htm

(November 17, 2016 at 1:23 am)Violeta-1998 Wrote: I am currently an agnostic, and I do believe in evolution, the big bang, I am a big fan of Richard Dawkins, Laurence Krauss, Hawking, just to name a few atheists. I think that for the most part, science does its job when explaining the universe, and the world in general. However, the concept of Near Death Experiences and Out of Body Experiences cause me to scratch my head. Recently, Dr. Jeffrey Long published a book where he analyzed 1600 cases of NDEs and he claimed that they were all strikingly similar, regardless of cultural differences. For example, many people reported seeing a bright light, feeling a lot of love, meeting deceased relatives, having a life review. I am wondering if anyone on this site ever read the Dr. Jeffrey book proof of afterlife? In his book, he even debunks the ideas of the brain hallucinating, and the idea of chemicals being released in the brain to cause these experiences. About 95% of participants thought that these experiences felt more real than real life, and hallucinations cannot feel that real. Also, many claim to see A god, but without a particular title. If 1600 experiences are very similar, would you say that it could mean that these are in fact snapshots of an afterlife? I just don't know how they can be so consistent, and how they can be so life changing if they are not real. 
People, please go easy on me! This is my first day and I am not an atheist, but an agnostic. I just want to know your opinion on Dr. Jeffrey Long, and on NDEs and OBEs in general!
Thanks,
Violeta :-)

Violeta,

The NDE cases are interesting.  I haven't looked into them that deeply, but from my understanding, a lot of what is described as similar; is only similar in the generic, and not the specific.  When you look at the specific, it becomes much more difficult to believe that they are describing a common thing. 

If this is the case, and they are subjective, rather than objective; then I do think that it is reasonable to consider that they are just an effect of the brain shutting down (being starved of oxygen).

The ones that I think are more interesting (and of greater consideration) are the ones that describe things that could not have been known by the person who was effectively brain dead.  Those that describe accurately the events of their own surgery, events in other places in the hospital, and I heard of one the other day where a woman who was blind from birth, accurately described her doctors appearance.   This speaks to a different subject than the other examples of NDE... which would be dualism.   And the problem here, is that while I have heard a number of these, I haven't seen any original testimony, or reports from those who can corroborate them.  It has all been second hand, and more of what I would consider anecdotes, which are general and lack much specifics.

(November 17, 2016 at 1:52 am)Alex K Wrote: Welcome Violeta! Have you done an intro thread yet?

The fact that they are similar regardless of culture (if indeed they are and the claim is reliable) is most easily  and obviously explained by the fact that we are all the same species with roughly the same physiology  I don't understand why it should be surprising that we experience similar phenomena  in similar conditions.

Wrong.  

Physiology never meant to be a science that study our consciousness and it is our consciousness that determine an NDE or nothing at all.
If I would be God I wouldn't care less about people physiology.
All I would care is whether people are ready or not for an NDE and it is their consciousness that would tell me that.  

Quote:I am willing to bet that Mr. Long has not convincingly debunked that NDEs are hallucinations in the widest sense. Can you give a short summary of his argument concerning this point so we have something to discuss?
That "hallucinations cannot feel that real" is just an arbitrary assertion. When the brain is under extreme conditions, all kinds of things can happen that you don't know in normal day to day life. The NDE is very different from a normal hallucination too in that the experience is likely not in real time but constructed after the fact, only seemingly spanning the period of time when the brain was down, because its internal clock assigning a relative time to experiences is not working properly.

(bold mine)

When the brain is under extreme conditions, all kinds of things can happen.....except a clear and sharp
account of an experience.  

(November 18, 2016 at 9:50 am)Little Rik Wrote: When the brain is under extreme conditions, all kinds of things can happen.....except a clear and sharp
account of an experience.  

"all kinds of things" includes "clear and sharp account of an experience"...
I don't know where you ever learned about logical statements... but I think you should try harder.

(November 18, 2016 at 9:50 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(November 17, 2016 at 1:52 am)Alex K Wrote: Welcome Violeta! Have you done an intro thread yet?

The fact that they are similar regardless of culture (if indeed they are and the claim is reliable) is most easily  and obviously explained by the fact that we are all the same species with roughly the same physiology  I don't understand why it should be surprising that we experience similar phenomena  in similar conditions.

Wrong.  

Physiology never meant to be a science that study our consciousness and it is our consciousness that determine an NDE or nothing at all.
If I would be God I wouldn't care less about people physiology.
All I would care is whether people are ready or not for an NDE and it is their consciousness that would tell me that.  

The argument that similar brain physiology -> similar brain function is a plausible explanation for similar experiences is valid, whether "physiology explains consciousness" seems beside the point.

(November 18, 2016 at 9:56 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(November 18, 2016 at 9:50 am)Little Rik Wrote: When the brain is under extreme conditions, all kinds of things can happen.....except a clear and sharp
account of an experience.  

"all kinds of things" includes "clear and sharp account of an experience"...
I don't know where you ever learned about logical statements... but I think you should try harder.

I am so so sorry Poc but I forgot to tell you that I am an expert in parodies.