Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?

[Aoi Magi]

Does HE want to communicate or not? If it's about testing faith and freewill, why perform the evidence-less large miracles in any religious text at all? What about the freewill of those who'd actually witness those things? Why would a omniscient, omnipresent god need to test anything in the first place?

[Cyberman]

"We cannot know the mind of god. So let me tell you all about the mind of god for the next two hundred pages."

[robvalue]

Who cares about miracles, anyway? At best they demonstrate there's some external being which feels the need to occasionally meddle in our affairs. It doesn't tell us what this being is or what its motivation is. There's nothing I can do about it until it decides to communicate in a sensible way.

They don't even demonstrate that. The most that can be drawn from them is that something supposedly happened. What the cause of that something might be is instantly shrouded in mysticism, often with a political aim, and divorced from external investigation. The believers are insistent on believing it no matter what, and how dare you persecute them for it.

And where do we draw a line, when anything dogmatically expedient is automatically a miracle? The book says the Sun stopped in the sky - it's a miracle! This baby is the only survivor of a 'plane crash - it's a miracle! I read a third-hand account of something that supposedly happened somewhere a century ago; all the explanations are silly - it's a miracle! My headache went away after I prayed - it's a miracle!

You're absolutely right of course. I was being a little generous and granting a free non-sequitur, I didn't phrase that well.

[Whateverist]

Thank you for your responses everyone. I plan on reading through and thinking more about things about why exactly I believe in God more tomorrow, and responding more as well. As for now, in short, I suppose it was because I was raised Catholic, looked into the teachings without questioning them too much, and following the teachings seemed right. It just made sense to me.

The thing is, questioning my faith seriously for the first time obviously forces me to think against what I've considered fact for a while. This is the first time I've genuinely thought, "What if there's no God?" I know, from the mindsets most of you are used to, God existing is just made up and doesn't make sense. It's hard for me to let go of what I and so many others considered fact. Obviously I need to look into this more.

I remember being in your exact predicament in my 20s. Off and on. Incidentally my disbelief came in the form of a near death experience. I don't mean hey I almost got t-boned by a semi truck--I mean I was physically dying, choking on my own vomit unable to move, whilst being poked and tubed and pooping myself. I remember very vividly watching a lion catch and kill a gazelle on the television. That, shook me. To the core. I didn't think I'd ever see anything but those four walls again, and there certainly was no comfort to be found. I screamed for god silently because that's all I could do, was scream and call for god in my head--but, there was nothing but the physical agony I was going through. I was terrified that I wasn't going to heaven! It was the most frightened and loneliest I'd ever felt in my life, and I had been the best daughter of god I could be. I didn't understand why he wasn't there! I gave my life to god when I was a child and sang about "Shadrack Meeshak and Bendigo" as early as 3.

When I was 21 I discontinued immunosuppression meds for a deadly disease in order to allow god to "Work miracles on me through my faith, without the hindrance of man and medicine upon me", prompted by a church pastor and my family. Well, needless to say that went.. not well! The fear of abandonment that I felt after that ICU visit.. That took a while to brush off, but I did it with relative ease. You know how Christians claim to be the fish swimming against the flow of the other fishes? It's really the other way around, I found.
So, I chose to put myself safely back into the arms of Jesus and just wrote off the experience as just "not my time to die".

It took a few years of stewing, but eventually I found myself in the position to do research on the Bible and what I believed. I wanted to be able to refute the hatefulness spewed from my and my friends dads, just because my dad considered himself a devout Christian and yet he called people like my friend whose had crushes on his own sex since we were kids--a pedophile and sinner and if it were legal, should be stoned. Women should shut their mouths, he'd tell my mom, literally pointing his finger to the bible in his hand. What the hell? I thought god loved everyone?? My dad came to tears once just thinking of the Jews (who reject his Savior?), saying he would die for them. He even mentioned socially violent expulsions of Muslims!

Well, that wasn't the god I followed.. Was it? Sure enough there's stuff in the bible they don't teach in Sunday school, or private Christian school. Many Christians claim to be the true Christians. Like my dad did, or I did. I believed in a god of love. Personally I believe everyone has their own god in their heads, when they profess to believe in one. If you pay attention, god reflects people like a mirror, when they talk about him; you can't get anyone to agree and thusly there are so many different church denominations!

A few years later I was dating an atheist and thought I could "save" him, when in reality? It is he who saved me! All he did was ask me why I was a Christian. And the more I thought about it, the more I didn't actually know, why?  I noticed when he linked me to "just standard facts" like archaeological findings, that I had never looked up anything online without it being through the lens of a Christian website! So I researched all of the internet, not just the "safe zones". Kind of like what you're doing now, visiting an atheist forum, oh my!

In the end I couldn't answer that atheist. I couldn't think of a single time that I could attribute god being anywhere but in my head! There was no spirit filling my body when I went to the front of the church at age 6, seeking god. I was a very abused child. I just stood there waiting to feel god, but I didn't feel anything besides someone's hand on my forehead. I didn't fall backwards convulsing like the others, speaking tongues like shalalalala, so in my time of need I was told I was "not godly enough" to receive his spirit. After that I dedicated my life to god in prayer every night. And every day I lived it for god, but it was the same shit fest it was before. Life, sucks!

Anyways at some point I realized that the Bible I was taught, the stories? They were only a tiny portion of the entirety of the bible itself. The more I read what the bible said, the more I realized that it sounded like a humans' thinking. Why would a god get jealous, or angry? Or explicitly order women and children to be killed, but keep the virgins? Or favor a people who bash babies heads on rocks or tear open the wombs of women??? For that matter why would a god see fit to open up the ground beneath us tiny helpless human beings and swallow us up for losing our way? Or flood and kill all his population of the planet and start over with just one family? Sure most born again Christians say things changed with Jesus and his sacrifice, but, out of Jesus' own mouth he says not a letter from the law will change until the end of time (see my signature for references). And the atrocious god of the Old Testament is still the same god as the New Testament. That's why I ended up rejecting the Christian god. Don't get me wrong, there are some intuitive knowledge in"Christ's" supposed teachings. Just like any book, there is a historical and humanistic relevance to it. But to me, that's all it is. And most certainly it's no reason to enslave, kill, or reject those we share this earth with.

If you want a place to start, Look into the bible itself!I'd suggest starting at the beginning! The very basis, of the biblical books. The bible is simply a bunch of scrolls put together and edited, re edited, written and used, by man. Do you really think the gospels were written eyewitness accounts? They're not even titled as such! The Book of John, is a good place to take a critical look when it comes to its' historical relevance. Written centuries after the fact, it's the only book of the apostles that claimed Jesus was God. Why do Jews reject Jesus? That's another thing to look into, I would think.

And evolution? There's a reason it's now the scientific standard and that 97% of scientists believe it to be true. There isn't some worldwide conspiracy-- I've looked at the evidence. Evolution is being used every day in many ways, like antibiotics. You've probably gotten your flu shot for instance, which is based directly upon the theories contrived from evolution! Other countries teach it as it should be, yet my country (the US) has had to fight hard for the standard and still it is rejected as "theory" by uneducated populace too busy working their asses off, to look into the reasons why scientists believe as they do. The theory of evolution is no less relevant than the theory of gravity. Science doesn't know everything, but it doesn't claim to, either. It can only extrapolate from the evidence it hascat hand. At this point though scientists can predict certain fossils in certain time periods before they're even discovered! As you're realizing, we could say we were indoctrinated into a belief system. To me its not any different than what North Koreans live every day! Their god just lives on earth. We cry, we base our decisions upon, we conform to, and we give our lives for a particular belief system, too.

Don't take my word for it, go look yourself! Open up your eyes to a world without filters, its actually really fun!

Whales, for instance. They are actually evolved from land mammals that share the same ancestor as hooved animals and hippopotamus! That's why they have remnant posterior limb bones. I'm just naming things off the top of my head, but, search it on google!

Once you open your heart and mind to any possibility, and hold god aNd science to the same standards of burden of proof--you'll find your own answers. No one can tell you what you should or shouldn't be without losing all credibility to free thought.

After coming to terms with my and others' mortality and the fact that I wouldn't get to see my dead dogs and cats.. A huge burden was lifted off of my shoulders! Before, I had constantly worried and praying about my family and their physical and spiritual well being. Constantly I felt like I was being watched, and since I gave up on belief in ghosts or demons, I have cleared up a lot in my psyche that had been tormenting me! Recurring night terrors, gone.

 I think that's literally the only big difference that I noticed in my own day to day life. Now when I'm half dead in hospital beds, the thought of god doesn't even come into my head. If I die, I die. The only reason I fight so hard to live is to be here for those that love me and fight with me, like my husband, that "atheist" I went out on a limb to date.

There are a lot of unanswered questions about our universe and our place in it. I am an atheist. But I wish and hope for an afterlife. I constantly search for proof of such. Until I find it, I will not believe in something just because some else tells me to take their word for it. This is my "testimony", brother.

Here's the whale link, its neat. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/0...ler-text/2

Nice to get your religious back story but what an awful experience to go through.

[Tonus]

Who cares about miracles, anyway?

A legit miracle would be a game-changer, confirming that there are things that can be ascribed to the supernatural. Most religious texts describe stuff that could --if performed today-- be tested to the degree that we should be able to rule out natural causes. A man able to walk on water, or turn water into wine, or restore sight to a blind person or movement to a paralyzed person, or take a few fish and loaves and feed thousands and then recover more left-overs than he started with... someone who did all of these things and could do them in any setting and under any circumstances? That would change the way we view the universe and reality itself.

Most of the miracles that occur today can be ascribed to luck or circumstance, but they don't describe things that do not have natural causes. Those that do cannot be agreed upon even by the devoutly religious; if you read of a miracle occurring to someone who is not of your denomination or faith, you are likely to doubt its veracity or believe that it's an example of the devil trying to mislead people. Many are passed along even when the only witness is the person reporting the event. Others are believed and passed along as miracles even when a natural cause is discovered. There may seem to be an overwhelming preponderance of miracles in today's world, but a closer look indicates a very different definition of the term is being used.

[Cyberman]

Yeah, they do like their sleights of hand, don't they?

[robvalue]

Who cares about miracles, anyway?

A legit miracle would be a game-changer, confirming that there are things that can be ascribed to the supernatural.   Most religious texts describe stuff that could --if performed today-- be tested to the degree that we should be able to rule out natural causes.  A man able to walk on water, or turn water into wine, or restore sight to a blind person or movement to a paralyzed person, or take a few fish and loaves and feed thousands and then recover more left-overs than he started with... someone who did all of these things and could do them in any setting and under any circumstances?  That would change the way we view the universe and reality itself.

Most of the miracles that occur today can be ascribed to luck or circumstance, but they don't describe things that do not have natural causes.  Those that do cannot be agreed upon even by the devoutly religious; if you read of a miracle occurring to someone who is not of your denomination or faith, you are likely to doubt its veracity or believe that it's an example of the devil trying to mislead people.  Many are passed along even when the only witness is the person reporting the event.  Others are believed and passed along as miracles even when a natural cause is discovered.  There may seem to be an overwhelming preponderance of miracles in today's world, but a closer look indicates a very different definition of the term is being used.

I can provide a video of a man walking on water, but somehow I feel it will be taken less seriously by Christians than a verbal account of the same thing.

[Balaco]

I identify as an atheist to try and further break the taboo, to break preconceptions, to support fellow atheists, and to simply be honest. The more "out" atheists there are, the easier it is for the next one to come out, and the harder it is to oppress atheists.

From what I'm gathering, you guys generally view religion as a product of the mind, an excuse for hope or political power, etc. that ignores logic and bends accordingly.

What are your thoughts on miracles, whether large-scale ones like the events of Fatima, or "personal" miracles like those listed on sites like these, http://www1.cbn.com/700club/episodes/all...ng-stories ....Lies? Coincidences? Exaggerations?

All of the above. Anecdotes are highly unreliable evidence anyway. At best they only tell you what people believe happened. No one is an authority on identifying and classifying miracles. People just find something they consider very out of the ordinary and proclaim, "It's a miracle".

It's a problem of definition. What is a miracle anyway? If it's meant to be God intervening, that means that it's essentially him changing his plan "on the go". Why would he need to do that? If his plan was perfect, it would need no alteration.

And how do you identify one? It's always the argument from ignorance fallacy. People say, "How else do you explain it?" It's irrelevant whether or not I, or anyone else, can explain it. Again, I simply say "I don't know". I don't know what actually happened, or what the explanation is. It doesn't give free license to make up your own explanation without evidence. So what is a miracle? If it's just an unexplained event, then just call it that. No need to assume "God did it". If it's "breaking the laws of nature", then that is an equivocation fallacy, just like with the supernatural in general. We attempt to describe the laws of nature; at no point can we prescribe them. I have a video about this. (I was trying out an angry persona at the time You can skip to 1:00 if you don't want to hear me screwing around at the start.)

Watched through most of the video. Well presented, I'm gathering atheists generally view "supernatural" events or miracles as events that, aside from potentially being lies/distortions of reality thanks to our minds, may simply be out of the windows/models of logic that the religious create.

Looking at this objectively, it seems like belief in these events is another concept that the religious are inclined to believe and defend. Something out of the ordinary may happen, and the minds of the religious are conditioned to feel like it's due to God's intervention. I may bring these points up with some Catholics and share what their defense is.

[Foxaèr]

The mind is as fragile as it is strong.

Some people are strong enough to face reality without the supernatural comforts, yet too many others are so weak they must ignore reality for the supernatural comfort.

Faith is no more than a drug of convenience for believers.

[Mystical]

Bring your Catholic brethren back with you! We just loooove Catholics, oh yes..



No but seriously, invite them on over for discussion? I quite enjoy theists' views on things and
how they bring up morality and existential conversations!