My views on God and religion

[arewethereyet]

You just bring it up and then can't answer a simple question?

Has no-one else read the five books of Hitchhiker's? I give up.

If only you would.

[Disagreeable]

I haven't read Hitchhiker's.

[MarcusA]

I haven't read Hitchhiker's.

Maybe you should.

[ShinyCrystals]

I wanted to bring this topic back up because I had a few more things to say, and I did make this topic, so...

First of, if God was omniscient, he would the future of everything in the universe. He would already know how people would act and what they'd do, but humanity has often described god as a being who watches over humanity more in a present sense. He waits to see what they do instead of using his omniscience to determine the future, it seems. If he were really omniscient, there would be no need to observe human actions in the present and wait before deciding if people would go to heaven or hell at the end of their lives. That is another thing that makes god more human than an actual divine being to me.

And there are people who say there is actually no such thing as free will. I believe that, but I want to say that even without free will, we are pretty much independent from god that he is not needed. Also, everything else can be considered independent from god as well, functioning and acting independently from god's so called "will". All things like natural disasters, how society works, basically anything in the universe is governed by the laws of logic and physics, which are so fundamental to this universe. In fact, they are so fundamental, there may not even be a need for a god to control everything. The problem, as I may have said before, is that many things in life are complicated, and not so simple for humans to understand, but no matter how complex anything is, I'd say the complexity of the universe and its things as well as the fundamental laws of the universe make it so that a god is not needed. The laws of logic and physics do not change anyway, and even if they did, the slightest change of anything could lead to dire consequences for us, and maybe everything else. Take moving the moon of planet Earth, for example; doing so would have a drastic, very bad effect on the tides of Earth, perhaps among other things, too. Or moving the earth from orbit, which could cause horrible things due to mass (or inertia) causing things to fling around at dangerous speeds from the orbit change as well as an imbalance of sunlight, depending on how far or close the Earth is moved from or to the sun, among other things. Now, those may not be physical laws in themselves, but I can imagine that if we could change a law of logic or physics, it would lead to dire results for us, maybe unless other laws of logic or physics are changed to balance things out.

But anyway, with the fundamental laws of physics and logic and how they can make us function independently from a supreme being like god, all god would be necessary for is to create the universe, and even then, I doubt he actually created the universe; let there be light and all.

[LinuxGal]

And there are people who say there is actually no such thing as free will.

If Man chooses to do something based on his upbringing, and his social environment, and his education, and a thousand other things he cannot not control, then his choice is not free.  If all those factors can be shunted aside by an act of pure will, then is seen the specter of infinite regression. Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills.

[ShinyCrystals]

And there are people who say there is actually no such thing as free will.

If Man chooses to do something based on his upbringing, and his social environment, and his education, and a thousand other things he cannot not control, then his choice is not free.  If all those factors can be shunted aside by an act of pure will, then is seen the specter of infinite regression. Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills.

Well, I do agree that there is no free will. Anyhow, aside from that, exactly, LinuxGal!

Seriously, there are so many factors that limit choice to the point of choice not being free. I do see that infinite regression thing as interesting, though. You can explain that, and man doing what he wills but can't will what he wills, if you'd like.

[LinuxGal]

If Man chooses to do something based on his upbringing, and his social environment, and his education, and a thousand other things he cannot not control, then his choice is not free.  If all those factors can be shunted aside by an act of pure will, then is seen the specter of infinite regression. Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills.

Well, I do agree that there is no free will. Anyhow, aside from that, exactly, LinuxGal!

Seriously, there are so many factors that limit choice to the point of choice not being free. I do see that infinite regression thing as interesting, though. You can explain that, and man doing what he wills but can't will what he wills, if you'd like.

Coders run across it all the time.  An efficient way to build a function is to make it recursive.  While it's running it calls itself, and that second instance calls itself, and so on, until a certain condition is met and the whole chain stops.  But the "will" function has no exit criteria.  You can never will what you will.

[ShinyCrystals]

Well, I do agree that there is no free will. Anyhow, aside from that, exactly, LinuxGal!

Seriously, there are so many factors that limit choice to the point of choice not being free. I do see that infinite regression thing as interesting, though. You can explain that, and man doing what he wills but can't will what he wills, if you'd like.

Coders run across it all the time.  An efficient way to build a function is to make it recursive.  While it's running it calls itself, and that second instance calls itself, and so on, until a certain condition is met and the whole chain stops.  But the "will" function has no exit criteria.  You can never will what you will.

That is interesting.

You know, I think this kind of goes with the fundamental laws of the universe and everything operating independently from a supreme being like god, if kind of. When I was reminded of free will not being a thing when I first came to this forum, I accepted that, because it made so much sense, and I thought it being an illusion as some sites I saw from long ago was potentially valid, as people seem to cling on to things like that of free will as a mental need. Anyway, I also learned the universe and everything in it; including the human mind; was mainly deterministic. The fundamental laws of the universe do determine how things work, and logically, everything that exists affects one another in some way, which should limit free will. Not to a lesser degree, but to nothing, as it truly does not exist. I think how everything works; how they affect one another; independently from a god, of course; makes free will nonexistent.

But maybe free will will probably does not need to exist, just like a supreme being like god does not need to exist for the reasons I described.

[LinuxGal]

Coders run across it all the time.  An efficient way to build a function is to make it recursive.  While it's running it calls itself, and that second instance calls itself, and so on, until a certain condition is met and the whole chain stops.  But the "will" function has no exit criteria.  You can never will what you will.

That is interesting.

You know, I think this kind of goes with the fundamental laws of the universe and everything operating independently from a supreme being like god, if kind of. When I was reminded of free will not being a thing when I first came to this forum, I accepted that, because it made so much sense, and I thought it being an illusion as some sites I saw from long ago was potentially valid, as people seem to cling on to things like that of free will as a mental need.

Typically believers invoke free will to solve problems in theodicy...the problem of evil.  When God is put forward as all powerful and all knowing and all good, people ask why the Holocaust happened.  Believers tell us it's because God wanted Hitler to have free will.

[ShinyCrystals]

That is interesting.

You know, I think this kind of goes with the fundamental laws of the universe and everything operating independently from a supreme being like god, if kind of. When I was reminded of free will not being a thing when I first came to this forum, I accepted that, because it made so much sense, and I thought it being an illusion as some sites I saw from long ago was potentially valid, as people seem to cling on to things like that of free will as a mental need.

Typically believers invoke free will to solve problems in theodicy...the problem of evil.  When God is put forward as all powerful and all knowing and all good, people ask why the Holocaust happened.  Believers tell us it's because God wanted Hitler to have free will.

Yeah. Still, those believers tend to contradict themselves, saying things like you can have free will, but if you don't believe in God, you are going to hell, which is BS. Plus, those believers do not seem to understand that things are not that simple in life, which means saying god wanted the likes of Hitler to have free will is not a good enough explanation, as there are other factors; possibly much more, in fact; as to why Hitler did bad things, let alone why evil exists. Saying God wanted Hitler to have free will is not a valid reason for the Holocaust, too. I am sure it is pretty far from the actual truth.

Besides, what those believers may not realize is that not only is God not the source of all good and that the Devil is not the source of all bad, but as far as good and bad go, you can't have one without the other. I tried explaining something like that on another thread I made, but many, or all things can't exist without positives alone. There is a need of balance after all, just like how friction is needed to slow and stop something from moving, for otherwise; we would continue moving forever. You probably get what I mean. The same applies to human life and society, too, as you can't get stronger without overcoming the negative things in life.

I just don't think believers realize that negative things can be necessary, even if we don't like them; let alone things aren't as simple as saying God is the reason for anything happening.