(August 5, 2015 at 5:09 pm)Javaman Wrote: I'm wary about the descriptors "designed" and "intended". But I digress.

If you follow my posts, you know that I'm not one to police my speech. The meaning isn't religious but lack of a better word.

(August 5, 2015 at 5:11 pm)abaris Wrote:

(August 5, 2015 at 5:09 pm)Javaman Wrote: I'm wary about the descriptors "designed" and "intended". But I digress.

If you follow my posts, you know that I'm not one to police my speech. The meaning isn't religious but lack of a better word.

Yeah I figured as much. I was more worried that some theist would twist your words to mean "Even atheists agree that Science proves Life is Designed by a Designer."

(August 5, 2015 at 5:16 pm)Javaman Wrote: Yeah I figured as much. I was more worried that some theist would twist your words to mean "Even atheists agree that Science proves Life is Designed by a Designer."

Yeah, and a big and heaqrtfelt fuck you to them. As I said, I'm not policing my speech.

(August 5, 2015 at 4:41 pm)BrokenQuill92 Wrote: CL what exactly is immoral about IVF? Am I missing something?

The short answer is this.

We believe reproduction is a very sacred act. And as all things sacred, we believe it should be guarded and protected and kept in the purity of its natural form. We think if a couple can't conceive, the more moral thing would be to adopt and give a home to one of the many homeless children of the world.

Ten pages already! CL, we need to pass out awards for the person who starts the threads with the most participation. I think you would win

I'm a mom and grandmother. Although I like kids, I can understand why someone else might not.

My oldest son has two children but my younger son has said that he is too afraid of passing on his bipolar disorder to have his own kids. He says he plans to become the favorite uncle by spoiling his niece and nephew.

I also have two daughters. Our plans were to stop at three kids but the last child was a surprise that was created shortly before my husband's vasectomy. We were on birth control when Sarah was conceived.

(August 5, 2015 at 5:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: We think if a couple can't conceive, the more moral thing would be to adopt and give a home to one of the many homeless children of the world.

In itself it's a laudable approach to offer a home to the homeless. But as always - not directed at you personally - I'm concerned if it comes with religious ballast. The it's the right thing because our religion tells us so approach is what's bothering me. Can be heartfelt, can also be a sense of duty. And a sense of duty isn't the best approach.

(August 5, 2015 at 4:45 pm)Javaman Wrote:

(August 5, 2015 at 4:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is incorrect.

Yes, we believe IVF is not a moral means of reproduction, but that does not mean the Church teaches that families are lesser or that kids are lesser if they came from IVF. If any Catholic holds that position, it is their own personal position, and not a teaching of the Church.

Oh I see. You prefer to engage in a semantic dance about your doctrine.
Let me ask you this: Is 50% lesser than 100%?
Because, according to your church's doctrine, IVF is missing half of the "meaning" of sexual reproduction.
Pope Paul VI said that there is an “inseparable connection, willed by God, and unable to be broken by man on his own initiative, between the two meanings of the conjugal act: the unitive meaning and the procreative meaning.”

If there's no unitive meaning (whatever the hell that actually means) in IVF, then isn't an IVF baby only half complete?
It's funny how one your popes can say that the connection is unbreakable, but then condemns those who actually find a way to "break" that connection. Weak sauce, to be sure.

It's not semantics at all.

We believe that IVF is immoral.

We still believe that all children are sacred and precious, and that a family is a sacred thing, regardless of how the children were conceived. So no, the Church does not teach that children conceived of IVF are "lesser" or that families consisting of children conceived form IVF are "lesser," as you claimed. I am sure you have a beautiful family.

But if you can't see the difference between the 2, then there's not much else I can say to you.

(August 5, 2015 at 3:41 pm)Javaman Wrote: On a side note, my wife and I are an infertile couple (well actually it's just me) and both of our children were conceived through IVF.

The teachings with regards to IVF of your beloved Church piss me off. If a Catholic ever suggests to me that my beautiful, amazing boys are the sinful byproduct of immoral and illicit acts, or that we are somehow a lesser family, I will punch them square in the nose.

This is just one of the many things about the Catholic Church that make me greatly appreciate Minimalist's sig.

*technically 4.92 yrs old, but we're already planning the birthday party, so I'm calling him 5.

Yeah, I don't think too many Catholics really give two shits what the church may say on the subject. My wife is a Catholic, albeit extremely lukewarm, and we went through IVF twice.

Catholics can be strangely defiant about church doctrine yet still stubbornly refuse to part from the church.

(August 5, 2015 at 4:52 pm)hilary Wrote:

(August 5, 2015 at 11:17 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: So after starting this thread yesterday, I've noticed that a lot of atheists neither like children nor want them. Some even went as far as to say it's immoral to have them.

Who said it was immoral to have children? Please point them out to me so that I may destroy their idiotic logic.

Pyrrho, Robvalue, Minimalist kinda hinted at it with with saying his kids did the right thing by not having children but you'll have to clarify with him, and CapnAwesome, from what I can think off the top of my head.

Of course, they are entitled to their own opinions. I would just leave it. I don't see a reason to argue, as people can think what they want.

(August 5, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: We still believe that all children are sacred and precious

Personally I think, all life is sacred, as far as secularism allows for sacred. Meaning that it should be preserved whenever possible. That's often something I miss with theists. They put humans on the high horse and the world surrounding us on the backburner.