atheism and children

[Lemonvariable72]

Omg you just gave me a panic attack!!! Lol

I want to get my tubes tied but I can't afford it. Plus the asshole docs who will try and shame me for want to do it before I have kids because "what if you change your mind!?!?"

I know someone who was born after her mom got her tubes tied lol. Apart from abstinence or a hysterectomy, there is no 100%.

My friends little sister was born that way. We called her the Houdini baby.

[Catholic_Lady]

We still believe that all children are sacred and precious

Personally I think, all life is sacred, as far as secularism allows for sacred. Meaning that it should be preserved whenever possible. That's often something I miss with theists. They put humans on the high horse and the world surrounding us on the backburner.

We also believe all life is sacred, but that human life is more so.

[abaris]

We also believe all life is sacred, but that human life is more so.

And that's exactly the problem I have with that line of thinking.

[Faith No More]

I can't say I agree with yours and pyrrho's position that having kids is an immoral injustice to them, lol, but I definitely respect your right to have that position and there is absolutely 0 reason for me to get upset at you over it.

I don't really understand those who get upset at others for thinking a certain thing is morally wrong. As long as it doesn't take away anyone's basic rights, then there is no reason why it should make me angry.

I don't think they're saying having kids is an immoral injustice to them. They're challenging the idea that every person is grateful for their existence. Until I had kids, I loathed my being alive and truly wished I had never been born. Now that I've found some slight semblance of happiness, I'm torn about whether or not my existence has been worth it.

That is something to take into consideration when a person chooses to have children.

[Cephus]

On a side note, my wife and I are an infertile couple (well actually it's just me) and both of our children were conceived through IVF.

The teachings with regards to IVF of your beloved Church piss me off. If a Catholic ever suggests to me that my beautiful, amazing boys are the sinful byproduct of immoral and illicit acts, or that we are somehow a lesser family, I will punch them square in the nose.

This is just one of the many things about the Catholic Church that make me greatly appreciate Minimalist's sig.

*technically 4.92 yrs old, but we're already planning the birthday party, so I'm calling him 5.

Yeah, I don't think too many Catholics really give two shits what the church may say on the subject.  My wife is a Catholic, albeit extremely lukewarm, and we went through IVF twice.

Catholics can be strangely defiant about church doctrine yet still stubbornly refuse to part from the church.

American Catholics really couldn't care less about what the Vatican says, for the most part.  That's been the case for decades.

[abaris]

I don't think they're saying having kids is an immoral injustice to them.  They're challenging the idea that every person is grateful for their existence.

I've been through some serious downs, but the last time I questioned if bringing kids into this world was the right thing to do was when I was about 16 or 17. In my first revolutionary period. I'm now in my second. I'm not grateful for existing, but since I do exist, I try to make the best of that predicament.

I don't have any kids, but when I was younger I wanted to have some. It just didn't happen.

[Dystopia]

An instinctual desire to have sex is not the same as an instinctual desire to have children.  I am inclined to accept that the former is an instinctual desire, but I have seen no evidence that the latter is an instinctual desire.  It seems more related to socialization than instinct.

Yes, but isn't it true that most species with some exceptions have tendency to reproduce and search for compatible mates with said goal?

Also, something being an instinctual desire does not mean that it has no connection to morality.  For the example of sex, consider rape and cheating on someone when one has promised to be faithful.  Having an instinctual desire does not excuse all actions based on that desire.

I agree. But your argument depends what you consider as moral and becomes subjective. In every era, time and culture I can find reasons to not have children. Ultimately people have children because they want to and because of societal pressure. As I said, my girlfriend wants to have 4 children and I accept the idea though I'd like to reduce the number down to 2 - It's probably her biggest dream since she was 6, she wants to be a mother - I like the idea of passing down my genes and generating offspring, it fascinates me. It is possible to be raised by a rich family and lack psychological and affectionate support, specially when parents spend too much time working, and it happens to some folks to be raised with a poor/very poor family that still works hard, day and night, to provide them with all that's necessary even if it means the parents lacking basic fulfillment.

The argument of "we don't know how life will be" is dependent on randomness and says nothing - It could be awesome, mild or horrible, we simply don't know - My life tomorrow could be all of those things, I could be hit by a truck, win the lottery or get an amazing job offer, I don't know, but I still wake up and live my day comfortably and rationally. 

That is irrelevant.  The decision is about whether or not to create a life, and the moral question is whether it is right to create a life or not.

I think it is morally neutral. Taking a life is immoral for many reasons. Creating one seems just neutral because it can happen for many reasons.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I voted B.

[Javaman]

Oh I see. You prefer to engage in a semantic dance about your doctrine.
Let me ask you this: Is 50% lesser than 100%?
Because, according to your church's doctrine, IVF is missing half of the "meaning" of sexual reproduction.
Pope Paul VI said that there is an “inseparable connection, willed by God, and unable to be broken by man on his own initiative, between the two meanings of the conjugal act: the unitive meaning and the procreative meaning.”

If there's no unitive meaning (whatever the hell that actually means) in IVF, then isn't an IVF baby only half complete?
It's funny how one your popes can say that the connection is unbreakable, but then condemns those who actually find a way to "break" that connection. Weak sauce, to be sure.

It's not semantics at all.

We believe that IVF is immoral.

We still believe that all children are sacred and precious, and that a family is a sacred thing, regardless of how the children were conceived. So no, the Church does not teach that children conceived of IVF are "lesser" or that families consisting of children conceived form IVF are "lesser," as you claimed. I am sure you have a beautiful family.

But if you can't see the difference between the 2, then there's not much else I can say to you.

Then why all the fuss over the method? What's with the nonsense over the unbreakable connection between the unitive and procreative aspects of fucking?

You say the process by which my children were conceived is irrelevant. Your church says otherwise. Whose word should I take on the the matter....

[Catholic_Lady]

I can't say I agree with yours and pyrrho's position that having kids is an immoral injustice to them, lol, but I definitely respect your right to have that position and there is absolutely 0 reason for me to get upset at you over it.

I don't really understand those who get upset at others for thinking a certain thing is morally wrong. As long as it doesn't take away anyone's basic rights, then there is no reason why it should make me angry.

I don't think they're saying having kids is an immoral injustice to them.  They're challenging the idea that every person is grateful for their existence.  Until I had kids, I loathed my being alive and truly wished I had never been born.  Now that I've found some slight semblance of happiness, I'm torn about whether or not my existence has been worth it.

That is something to take into consideration when a person chooses to have children.

No, they also said that it is immoral because you are bringing someone into existence without their consent.