Really? I don't know what you mean

(August 6, 2015 at 1:45 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote:

(August 6, 2015 at 1:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Which aspect, precisely? I understand not agreeing, but can you at least see where we're coming from?

No, as it happens, I can't.

The end result is exactly the same whether it's through actual intercourse or insertion of the fertilised eggs into the womb.

The difference is entirely arbitrary and moral objections to IVF appear to be an objection for objection's sake of to save face in the light of ambiguity of dogma and/or doctrine When confronted with technological advance.

Hell just have sex before/after the procedure and pretend. The procedure at least has a guaranteed % chance of starting the process (in that the sperm has met the egg) 'Normal' intercourse is hit and miss *at best*.

That's how it looks to me too, CL.

It only makes sense if you believe the superstitious mumbo jumbo about the "sacred nature" of sexual intercourse or the "unitive dimension of conjugal love". They're just more assertions that aren't supported by evidence... can you at least see where we are coming from when we reject your explanation as nonsensical?

Furthermore can you see how arrogant and presumptious you sound when you say that IVF babies are the product of immoral and illicit activities? Or how insulting it is to compare IVF to criminal acts?

And how does you or your pope know that I wasn't filled with a sense of "self-giving love" (whatever the hell that means) when I masturbated?

Still curious to know if the punishment for rapists in the afterlife is 1000X worse than the punishment for IVF'ers.

(August 5, 2015 at 8:52 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(August 5, 2015 at 8:17 pm)massey904 Wrote: Atheists do favor abortion so I could understand why they don't like kids

First of all, I'm sure more atheists are in favor of allowing abortions than Christians. That's not the same as celebrating them. And there are pro choice Christians.

But, and I think it's the big thing that you are missing is that those of us who are pro choice generally don't think that fetuses are children. Neither does the Bible. It's one of the few cases where I agree with the Bible. Fetuses aren't children.

I like children. Can't say I really like babies, though I loved mine. But I don't like all adults generally either. I do find injuring or neglecting babies or children reprehensible. I find injuring able adults reprehensible and injuring or neglecting disabled adults reprehensible. Ending fetuses not so much. Why? Because they are not people yet.

Does a fetus have a right to live?

(August 6, 2015 at 3:48 pm)Javaman Wrote:

(August 6, 2015 at 1:45 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: No, as it happens, I can't.

The end result is exactly the same whether it's through actual intercourse or insertion of the fertilised eggs into the womb.

The difference is entirely arbitrary and moral objections to IVF appear to be an objection for objection's sake of to save face in the light of ambiguity of dogma and/or doctrine When confronted with technological advance.

Hell just have sex before/after the procedure and pretend. The procedure at least has a guaranteed % chance of starting the process (in that the sperm has met the egg) 'Normal' intercourse is hit and miss *at best*.

That's how it looks to me too, CL.

It only makes sense if you believe the superstitious mumbo jumbo about the "sacred nature" of sexual intercourse or the "unitive dimension of conjugal love". They're just more assertions that aren't supported by evidence... can you at least see where we are coming from when we reject your explanation as nonsensical?

Furthermore can you see how arrogant and presumptious you sound when you say that IVF babies are the product of immoral and illicit activities? Or how insulting it is to compare IVF to criminal acts?

And how does you or your pope know that I wasn't filled with a sense of "self-giving love" (whatever the hell that means) when I masturbated?

Still curious to know if the punishment for rapists in the afterlife is 1000X worse than the punishment for IVF'ers.

Hm? But I also do believe those things about intercourse.

Again, please no straw. I never said that about babies.

(August 6, 2015 at 1:45 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: Hell just have sex before/after the procedure and pretend. The procedure at least has a guaranteed % chance of starting the process (in that the sperm has met the egg) 'Normal' intercourse is hit and miss *at best*.

Just on a side note, couples are usually recommended not to have sexual intercourse during an IVF cycle.

And to be honest, if my wife's experience is any indication, the odds of her being in the mood for sex immediately before or after extraction or transplanting are very, very slim.

If you're curious, you can google "ovarian hyperstimulation."

(August 6, 2015 at 6:53 am)massey904 Wrote:

(August 5, 2015 at 8:52 pm)Jenny A Wrote: First of all, I'm sure more atheists are in favor of allowing abortions than Christians.  That's not the same as celebrating them.  And there are pro choice Christians.

But, and I think it's the big thing that you are missing is that those of us who are pro choice generally don't think that fetuses are children.  Neither does the Bible.  It's one of the few cases where I agree with the Bible.  Fetuses aren't children.

I like children.  Can't say I really like babies, though I loved mine.  But I don't like all adults generally either.  I do find injuring or neglecting babies or children reprehensible.   I find injuring able adults reprehensible and injuring or neglecting disabled adults reprehensible.  Ending fetuses not so much.  Why?  Because they are not people yet.

Should a fetus have a chance to live? Where in the bible does I support abortion? The bible is 100% pro life.

You haven't read your bible very closely, have you?

(August 6, 2015 at 3:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 6, 2015 at 3:48 pm)Javaman Wrote: That's how it looks to me too, CL.

It only makes sense if you believe the superstitious mumbo jumbo about the "sacred nature" of sexual intercourse or the "unitive dimension of conjugal love". They're just more assertions that aren't supported by evidence... can you at least see where we are coming from when we reject your explanation as nonsensical?

Furthermore can you see how arrogant and presumptious you sound when you say that IVF babies are the product of immoral and illicit activities? Or how insulting it is to compare IVF to criminal acts?

And how does you or your pope know that I wasn't filled with a sense of "self-giving love" (whatever the hell that means) when I masturbated?

Still curious to know if the punishment for rapists in the afterlife is 1000X worse than the punishment for IVF'ers.

Hm? But I also do believe those things about intercourse.

Again, please no straw. I never said that about babies.

You said that IVF was an immoral and illicit act, and compared it to a criminal activity. So yeah, you did say the IVF babies are the product of immoral and illicit activities. You're the only one offering up straw here.

You have likened me to a criminal, CL, because I wanted a family and used science to make it happen.

And you want me to be cool with your belief in the superstitious mumbo jumbo that supposedly justifies your bigoted attitudes?

I don't think so.

And, again, will a rapist receive a worse punishment than me in the afterlife? You seem pretty clear about the Church's teachings on IVF.... why can't you figure out the answer to my question?

(August 6, 2015 at 10:55 am)Alex K Wrote: It might interest you that I'll be fixing sweet pudding from scratch later, with starch, sugar and cocoa powder, and as an added bonus, I'll sink 50g of mint chocolate into it. The good swiss stuff.

How fast can I make it across the Atlantic ocean?

(August 6, 2015 at 3:04 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 6, 2015 at 2:17 pm)Cephus Wrote: So is wearing clothes, I don't see them running around naked, do you?  As with everything else, they pick and choose what they feel like believing.

Except "it's unnatural," in isolation, was never the reason I gave for why we believe IVF is immoral.

More straw, but I'm used to it.

No straw there, you're the one who refuses to discuss it in any detail.

(August 6, 2015 at 4:12 pm)Javaman Wrote:

(August 6, 2015 at 3:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Hm? But I also do believe those things about intercourse.

Again, please no straw. I never said that about babies.

You said that IVF was an immoral and illicit act, and compared it to a criminal activity. So yeah, you did say the IVF babies are the product of immoral and illicit activities. You're the only one offering up straw here.

You have likened me to a criminal, CL, because I wanted a family and used science to make it happen.

And you want me to be cool with your belief in the superstitious mumbo jumbo that supposedly justifies your bigoted attitudes?

I don't think so.

And, again, will a rapist receive a worse punishment than me in the afterlife? You seem pretty clear about the Church's teachings on IVF.... why can't you figure out the answer to my question?

I said all children are sacred and precious. And they should not be seen as a "product of an immoral act" anymore than rape children should be seen as a "product of an immoral act." The means by which a child was conceived bears absolutely nothing on the child herself.

The analogy I used in regards to attaining $10 through stealing or working was not to compare the 2 acts (otherwise you'd also be saying that I'm comparing a child to $10), it was to explain how I believe there can be a right and a wrong way to go about obtaining the same end results. I used "stealing" because I know that stealing is something that y'all would consider an immoral act and so I thought it would help better explain where I am coming from. Nothing more, nothing less.

I actually don't care if you're cool with it or not. I do find it very interesting that you are so deeply offended by my personal belief that IVF is not moral, yet are totally ok with someone saying "I think having kids is immoral and I look down on people who have them." At least I don't look down on people who do IVF.

But, I digress.