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RE: atheism and children
August 7, 2015 at 8:31 pm
(August 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But that is not what Catholicism teaches, and I personally think it's simply God letting nature take its coarse. That includes diseases, accidents, disorders, etc. I don't believe God functions as a micromanager.
It's interesting that you make a distinction between nature and god. I'm not up to scratch anymore as far as catholic dogma is concerned, but according to many christians, nature is god's creation and since they believe in a perfect god, nature has to be perfect too.
Not my belief obviously, but the impression I'm getting from reading christian arguments.
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RE: atheism and children
August 7, 2015 at 8:34 pm
(August 7, 2015 at 8:31 pm)abaris Wrote: (August 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But that is not what Catholicism teaches, and I personally think it's simply God letting nature take its coarse. That includes diseases, accidents, disorders, etc. I don't believe God functions as a micromanager.
It's interesting that you make a distinction between nature and god. I'm not up to scratch anymore as far as catholic dogma is concerned, but according to many christians, nature is god's creation and since they believe in a perfect god, nature has to be perfect too.
Not my belief obviously, but the impression I'm getting from reading christian arguments.
Well then people would have to be perfect too, lol. And we all know that's not true.
Never seen that argument before.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: atheism and children
August 7, 2015 at 8:36 pm
(This post was last modified: August 7, 2015 at 8:36 pm by abaris.)
(August 7, 2015 at 8:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Never seen that argument before.
Often seen here in one way or the other. Often used to justify the morality of - let's say - the more excentric parts of the bible.
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RE: atheism and children
August 7, 2015 at 8:38 pm
(August 7, 2015 at 8:36 pm)abaris Wrote: (August 7, 2015 at 8:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Never seen that argument before.
Often seen here in one way or the other. Often used to justify the morality of - let's say - the more excentric parts of the bible.
Interesting...
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: atheism and children
August 7, 2015 at 8:59 pm
(August 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 7, 2015 at 6:32 pm)Alex K Wrote: If creating life were so sacred, God wouldn't fuck it up all the time for so many people. Infertility, miscarriages, doesn't look very sacred to me.
Some Christians will say to punish people.
But that is not what Catholicism teaches, and I personally think it's simply God letting nature take its coarse. That includes diseases, accidents, disorders, etc. I don't believe God functions as a micromanager.
That means that god is evil. If he has the power to stop such things, without risk to himself, and chooses not to do so, he is responsible for it. (Not to mention the fact that if he created the world in the first place, he is totally responsible for everything that naturally occurs as a result of his creation.) You worship a cruel, heartless bastard.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: atheism and children
August 7, 2015 at 9:32 pm
(August 7, 2015 at 8:59 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: (August 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Some Christians will say to punish people.
But that is not what Catholicism teaches, and I personally think it's simply God letting nature take its coarse. That includes diseases, accidents, disorders, etc. I don't believe God functions as a micromanager.
That means that god is evil. If he has the power to stop such things, without risk to himself, and chooses not to do so, he is responsible for it. (Not to mention the fact that if he created the world in the first place, he is totally responsible for everything that naturally occurs as a result of his creation.) You worship a cruel, heartless bastard.
Ah, gotcha. 
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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atheism and children
August 7, 2015 at 9:49 pm
(August 7, 2015 at 8:59 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: (August 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Some Christians will say to punish people.
But that is not what Catholicism teaches, and I personally think it's simply God letting nature take its coarse. That includes diseases, accidents, disorders, etc. I don't believe God functions as a micromanager.
That means that god is evil. If he has the power to stop such things, without risk to himself, and chooses not to do so, he is responsible for it. (Not to mention the fact that if he created the world in the first place, he is totally responsible for everything that naturally occurs as a result of his creation.) You worship a cruel, heartless bastard.
You must certainly understand the Christian belief that we live in a fallen world as a direct result of the original sin.
What's more important to point out is that you call God evil. On what basis? Your own? You cannot call anything evil without invoking a personal moral authority of which you say does not exist.
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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RE: atheism and children
August 7, 2015 at 9:56 pm
Personal morality exists and it's largely based on a social contract. It's objective morality that doesn't exist.
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:
"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."
For context, this is the previous verse:
"Hi Jesus" -robvalue
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RE: atheism and children
August 7, 2015 at 10:20 pm
(August 7, 2015 at 9:56 pm)Exian Wrote: Personal morality exists and it's largely based on a social contract. It's objective morality that doesn't exist. And if that's true then he is only calling God evil on his own moral standard or claiming moral superiority. Quite often I see others judging God and quite plainly they could do better or would do it differently. Pretty bold statements. Anyone here want one of us to be God?
If you claim no objective morality, there are only three options left. Moral subjectivism, moral relativism and moral nihilism.
In any of those you cannot logically make statements like:
Rape is wrong
Hitler and Stalin were wrong
Kindness is a virtue
Cruelty is a vice
Its wrong to drown a baby in a bathtub for entertainment
These statements cannot be made sense out of without objective morality or would you care to say these are a matter of opinion or societal norms?
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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RE: atheism and children
August 7, 2015 at 10:20 pm
(August 7, 2015 at 9:49 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: (August 7, 2015 at 8:59 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: That means that god is evil. If he has the power to stop such things, without risk to himself, and chooses not to do so, he is responsible for it. (Not to mention the fact that if he created the world in the first place, he is totally responsible for everything that naturally occurs as a result of his creation.) You worship a cruel, heartless bastard.
You must certainly understand the Christian belief that we live in a fallen world as a direct result of the original sin.
What's more important to point out is that you call God evil. On what basis? Your own? You cannot call anything evil without invoking a personal moral authority of which you say does not exist.
We call things evil because of our evolutionary instincts, not anything else. "God", in this case, while still being nothing more but the most unfortunate fictional character in the history of literature, is evil because he's supposed to be omnipotent yet people die and life isn't perfect. It's that easy.
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