I would also add that to say it simply leaders leading people astray is not true, although this is a factor, as they help the dark forces keep people blind being blind themselves. People recite the Quran at home and they get some of these false recitations even before coming across leaders stating things about them. There is something on the hearts. Something very dark and sinister towards the truth about the family of Mohammad in Quran and other teachings in it.

Observation 6, blindness to place of Harun to Musa hadith.


In Quran there is a repeated theme of Harun's (Aeron) station with respect to Musa (Moses).  Now before going into the details of this station and the hints that Ali has this station in Quran, let us look at a hadith about this regarding Ali.

To read about this hadith, you can read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_position

Anyways, to make a long story short, Sunnis interpret the line "you are in the position to me as Harun is to Musa" as particularly with reference to when Harun was left to take place of Moses temporarily when Musa went to meet God. The problem and it's something sunnis are veiled from but also I don't see Shias bring up this argument, so it's something that dark forces are keeping everyone from realizing, is that the phrase "except there is no Prophet after me" implies that the station of Harun to Musa included that of Aaron being a Prophet along side Moses, so it's not only referring to a particular temporary position.

We see in Quran that Moses asks God to remove the knot on his tongue and expand his breast and to make a Wazeer (vizier) from his family, Harun his borther, and in other verse, it is said "And my heart is constrained and my tongue doesn't reach out so send me Harun (Aaron)" and another verse it is stated, "And my brother is better at speech then me, so send me Harun". These interpret each other, and so when we see Suratal Inshirah, with a similar emphasis on the prayer of Moses, as well, as in Suratal Taha where Harun is mentioned before Moses in "Lord of Harun and Musa" in one place, while the other two places it's "Lord of Musa and Harun", and there it's emphasized Moses is the highest in the people's eyes, and we see Suratal insharah emphasize that Mohammad's mention has been risen as well. Then this is a major hint there is a similar one with this station. The Quran also emphasizes it was by Harun that God strengthened the back of Moses.

And we read Ali was made the door to the house of wisdom or gate to the knowledge during the life time of Messenger and this is verified by this station of Harun to Musa hadith.

As well Quran emphasizes that Harun was to be followed alongside Musa, and that he be the one to take place of Musa in his absence, showing that Ali would be the one to take place of Mohammad in his absence. This is why the hadith emphasizes "from after me".

And as well Harun was to be recognize and exalted as a chosen one, along side Musa, and this means Ali was too to be recognized a chosen one and exalted one alongside Mohammad. 

This shows he is his successor but as well, that he was the gate to the interior of the wisdom of the religion during the life of time of Mohammad (saw) which verifies the hadith that Ali was the door to the house of wisdom.

The other issue not being a Prophet doesn't negate not being a chosen one as we chosen ones such as Mariam and Sarah while they were not Prophets as well as Talut who was a chosen leader who was not a Prophet.

Now why do they neglect that "except there is no Prophet after me" gives no room for doubt that the "the position as Harun to Musa" is comprehensive of all the stations and honor with Harun to Musa because it includes that of being a Prophet which the Prophet had to clarify is the exception in which Ali doesn't have.

The question is why are people so oblivious to such a clear sentence and it's meaning.

This clearly shows Ali was the successor of Mohammad regardless if Harun lived after Moses or not. 

To me, the fact, that even Shias haven't articulated this point, seems to me, that there is dark forces not wanting people to follow Ali.

Ali is indeed the door towards God and his Messenger, and dark forces don't want people to recognize Ali.

(August 14, 2015 at 8:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Honestly, I've thought about this issue, and it makes no sense to assume it's natural reasons. None what so ever

Orly. So....magic then?

Sounds reasonable.

(July 15, 2015 at 11:52 am)Rhythm Wrote: Now there's a hex on our hearts -and- we can speak an incantation to summon juju of our own, Mystic?  What a magical world you must live in.

Buy a bkb, or a pipe of insight. Problem solved.

(August 15, 2015 at 2:47 am)Neimenovic Wrote:

(August 14, 2015 at 8:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Honestly, I've thought about this issue, and it makes no sense to assume it's natural reasons. None what so ever

Orly. So....magic then?

Sounds reasonable.

Yes it's the reasonable conclusion. The effects of supernatural influence is obvious right now. It's just to Atheists, they assume supernatural is illogical to assume simply by taking their disbelief in souls, God, spiritual world as if it's some sort of rational, while these things are really the rational things to believe in because we are souls and can see we are such, we inherit actions, and the influence of both guiding and misguiding forces is obvious on the hearts, and the battle between good and evil taking within our souls is obvious to those trying to be sincere to God but find influence is pushing them away and towards, and there struggle and tug war in their souls between the light and darkness.

(August 15, 2015 at 10:23 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(August 15, 2015 at 2:47 am)Neimenovic Wrote: Orly. So....magic then?

Sounds reasonable.

Yes it's the reasonable conclusion. The effects of supernatural influence is obvious right now. It's just to Atheists, they assume supernatural is illogical to assume simply by taking their disbelief in souls, God, spiritual world as if it's some sort of rational, while these things are really the rational things to believe in because we are souls and can see we are such, we inherit actions, and the influence of both guiding and misguiding forces is obvious on the hearts, and the battle between good and evil taking within our souls is obvious to those trying to be sincere to God but find influence is pushing them away and towards, and there struggle and tug war in their souls between the light and darkness.

That is a straw man, MK. Atheists don't deny your reasoning because it deals with the supernatural. This atheist denies your reasoning because I see the natural reasons that you do not. It's the reverse, actually; you deny the influence of natural forces. Are you familiar with the way that the psychology of bias works? There is a veil upon people's hearts, but it's a natural consequence of the psychology of bias. Your argument is an argument from ignorance, that you can't see how natural reasons account for the phenomena, therefore you conclude that they don't. That's fallacious reasoning and an unreliable conclusion.

The string continues, now top post in 7.

Going to have to check out Numerology. Wiki states "St. Augustine of Hippo (A.D. 354–430) wrote "Numbers are the Universal language offered by the deity to humans as confirmation of the truth." Similar to Pythagoras, he too believed that everything had numerical relationships and it was up to the mind to seek and investigate the secrets of these relationships or have them revealed by divine grace.St." google numerology

OMG, I might have to reconsider my belief system!

That's it.

I'm turning Japanese.

I really think so.

(August 15, 2015 at 2:12 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(August 15, 2015 at 10:23 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Yes it's the reasonable conclusion. The effects of supernatural influence is obvious right now. It's just to Atheists, they assume supernatural is illogical to assume simply by taking their disbelief in souls, God, spiritual world as if it's some sort of rational, while these things are really the rational things to believe in because we are souls and can see we are such, we inherit actions, and the influence of both guiding and misguiding forces is obvious on the hearts, and the battle between good and evil taking within our souls is obvious to those trying to be sincere to God but find influence is pushing them away and towards, and there struggle and tug war in their souls between the light and darkness.

That is a straw man, MK.  Atheists don't deny your reasoning because it deals with the supernatural.  This atheist denies your reasoning because I see the natural reasons that you do not.  It's the reverse, actually; you deny the influence of natural forces.  Are you familiar with the way that the psychology of bias works?  There is a veil upon people's hearts, but it's a natural consequence of the psychology of bias.  Your argument is an argument from ignorance, that you can't see how natural reasons account for the phenomena, therefore you conclude that they don't.  That's fallacious reasoning and an unreliable conclusion.

It's not simply that I cannot see how bias or natural causes cause this, it's because of reasoning I rule it out. For example, take the verses leading up to 4:59. Even Tabatabai who put much thought into it and was aware of the hadiths of Ahlulbayt about it and was shia (ie. believed in the 12 Imams and even said the hadiths are mutuwatir), could not see the flow and you can read his tafsir on the verses over here: http://www.almizan.org/ . Read how he interprets the hadiths which to me manifest the clear flow.

And it's not only Sunnis who don't see it, and it's another thing if they don't believe in it and whole other thing that they cannot even see the possible flow.  But this is true of converts and Shias as well. Most converts and Shias don't see the flow. The flow of course once the reflecting destroys the locks seems too obvious not to see, yet it's not seen.

The same is true of those chosen ones inheriting book, the place of Harun to Musa hadith, etc... It's not only Sunnis who don't see these, but converts, as well, as Shias in general aren't aware while the hadiths of Ahlulbayt do clarify much, it's still not registering. For example, I haven't see any shia or shia scholar make the argument "except there is no Prophet after me" implies it's taking about a comprehensive station of Harun with respect to Musa that includes Prophethood which the Prophet had to clarify did not have. It's obvious, it's clear...and the Shia bias to be prove Ali...so what's preventing people from clarifying this when they believe it is about Ali's successorship?

Another thing is the verse about miracles, no Muslim would want to believe the illogical recitation, but that's what they recite, as the illogical recitation would mean the religion is wrong. Yet this what all classical and current tafsirs interpret as, and it's the reason I left Islam primarily. What does bias have to do with that then?

Take another example I haven't mentioned. The verse of purification meaning that the only thing God desires to keep away from Ahlulbayt is the uncleanness while he purifies them a perfect purification is something all lovers of Ahlulbayt would believe about them and want God to honor them in Quran with such words. And upon logical reasoning, it's the only recitation that makes sense. Yet even shias are not aware of these, in fact, my whole life, I haven't come across on Shia who had that belief about it. It's something I had to see myself when I read hadiths that it was response to Mohammad (saw) saying to bless his family.

And bias can cause people not to believe in something, but totally be oblivious to it, to not even consider it as a mere possibility as such in many of these cases, it's something else all together. And not even being able to remember one verse on the same topic of another verse while reciting Quran over and over again, cannot be explained simply by bias.

Bias plays a factor with respect to some of these, but it cannot explain it. And bias plays the opposite role (ie. it should push for them to see it) for some people in some of these cases, yet there is something else preventing them from seeing.

Common MK, shoot for the top of 8. We're all routing for you. GO TEAM MK, GO!