(September 1, 2015 at 11:03 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 1, 2015 at 10:59 am)Iroscato Wrote: Who is Bill and why have you mailed him that is a cruel thing to do.

It's a bill, not a Bill. Can't you read?!

Like a duck bill? You sicken me.

(September 1, 2015 at 11:07 am)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

(August 31, 2015 at 8:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: That second one is the big question. There is a theory I've heard, and that is that God keeps Himself hidden from us in this life because otherwise many people would blame Him for anything that went wrong, and always ask Him for things.

People already "always ask [God] for things" though.  That's what intercessory prayer is: petitioning God to intercede on their, or another's, behalf.

And God (every god, not just the Christian one) is/are already blamed for lots of things.

Thus, to avoid being blamed for things and avoid being asked for things cannot be an explanation for divine hiddenness because those thing are already demonstrably happening with your god.

I understand people already pray and ask Him for things, and blame Him for things, but imagine if He was in the form of a person standing right in front of us, and we were able to converse with Him everyday, like a parent or a very close friend. Imagine having a close friend who is all powerful. Most of us would probably not be able to help but feel resentment towards Him when a loved one died, or when we asked for something that didn't happen. I mean, that happens even without Him being like a person we can see and talk to. Imagine if we could?

(September 1, 2015 at 12:09 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Judging from some of the questions/comments, I can see that some of you simply did not understand the original post lol. I'm sorry, but I just don't know how to make it any more clear. I thought the article explained the concept pretty well. Some of you are still acting as though it's a "punishment" cast by God, that no one deserves. It's not. It's a state of being that a person puts themselves in, and in doing so, they make themselves pretty miserable.

In your opinion:

Some other catholics....opinions.

Quote:'Oh, what strength has not the fear of Hell to rein us in from sin!

To that end has God created Hell. . . it is His wish and command that we should be in fear of eternal damnation. Some heretics hold, that all who are not in sin should consider themselves as assuredly just and predestined; but these have with reason been condemned by the Council of Trent (Sess. 6 can. 14, 15), because such a presumption is as perilous to salvation as fear is conducive to it.


--St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

Quote:'The natural fire that we see during this life has great power to burn and torment. Yet this is not even a shadow of the fire of Hell. There are two reasons why the fire of Hell is more dreadful beyond all comparison than the fire of this life.

The first reason is the justice of God, which the fire serves as an instrument in order to punish the infinite wrong done to his supreme majesty, which has been despised by a creature. Therefore, justice supplies this element with a burning power, which almost reaches the infinite. . .

The second reason is the malice of sin. As God knows that the fire of this world is not enough to punish sin, as it deserves, He has given the fire of Hell a power so strong that it can never be comprehended by any human mind. Now, how powerfully does this fire burn?

It burns so powerfully, O my soul, that, according to the ascetical masters, if a mere spark of it fell on a millstone; it would reduce it in a moment to powder. If it fell on a ball of bronze, it would melt it in an instant as if it were wax. If it landed on a frozen lake, it would make it boil in an instant.'


St. Anthony Mary Claret

Quote:'That fire is more deadly than any which man can suffer in this life.'


St. Augustine

Quote:'I saw the torments of hell and those of purgatory; no words can describe them. Had poor mortals the faintest idea of them, they would suffer a thousand deaths rather than undergo the least of their torments during a single day.'


St. Catherine of Siena

Quote:'All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery.'


St. Clement of Alexandria

Let me know when you get it all worked out with these "saints."

(September 1, 2015 at 11:01 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: HN, this is specifically addressed in the article I posted on the OP:

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Quote:For example, The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, a large 1995 publication edited by several theologians under the direction of the Rev. Richard P. McBrien of Notre Dame, defines hell as ''the eternal loss of God'' and bluntly warns that biblical images of infernal torments are not to be taken literally but instead symbolize suffering ''inherent in the state of sin.''

In 1994 the church released the new Catholic Catechism, which contains more than 700 pages explaining Catholic beliefs but devotes only five paragraphs to hell. While the catechism says that Jesus spoke of hell as an ''unquenchable fire,'' it says hell's primary punishment is ''eternal separation from God,'' which results from an individual's conscious decision.

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Yeah... No - not really. You said there's nothing in catholic teachings about hell being a "punishment". Well, apparently - there is SOMETHING, at least according to the fragment you just quoted - even if it's not the "main thing".

It's pretty clearly spelled out in the catechism, as quoted earlier - Jesus' angels, at his command will cast the sinners into the fire. Of course, I'm sure it won't be difficult to correct in the next edition of Catechism - whenever that happens. After all - for old guys wearing dresses and funny hats, who make this sh*t up for a living - there is no circle that can not be squared. They made it up - they can twist it however they like. It's not like anyone can check...

(September 1, 2015 at 11:07 am)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

Quote:I'm just trying to imagine... if God was someone we could see and talk with every day, and we developed a personal relationship with Him in that way like we would with a friend, considering who He is (all powerful and all that), we'd probably demand a lot from Him.

I don't accept the idea that if we developed the kind of relationship with a god we had with our friends that we would then start making demands of that god.  Most people who maintain friendships with people who are, let's say, socioeconomically better off than themselves don't go around demanding that that friend pay their bills for them.  There are some people who do take advantage of other people in that way, yes.  Granted.  But most don't.

Perhaps you are right, if we equate Him merely to a human who just happens to have more money. But I think it'd be a little more than that. Like I said in my previous post though, many people already feel resentment towards God when things don't go right.

@CL: Since even Catholics can't agree on the most basic properties of hell, what makes you confident that (a) it is real at all and (b) your idea is the correct one?

Hell was an invention of the church, a means of control. Nothing more, and nothing less. The idea of an afterlife being about reward and punishment is a human concept. If God exists and expects us to live our lives a certain way, he'd have written it into our code instead of having men write it on pages.

(September 1, 2015 at 11:07 am)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

Quote:We'd probably get down right pissed off at Him every time something very unfortunate happened in our lives. He'd be the scapegoat, and he'd be hated. We'd hate Him. Hating God is not good for our own well being, so it is for our own sake that He does not present Himself openly in our everyday lives.

But if we had the kind of relationship you imagine or hope that we might have with a God who makes itself known to us (a friendship), then that god could explain its rationale for its actions to us when we question it - and if that god is omnipotent then it could explain its rationale to us in such a way that we would understand why the thing that happened had to happen.  Although, if you want to get really picky, if this god really is omnipotent, then it could make all things happen without also requiring that those things be accompanied by pain, destruction and death, and if this god really is a benevolent god it would make sure that pain, destruction and death are avoided because intentionally making someone suffer is not a benevolent act.  And if this god is omniscient, then it would know the outcome of all actions it could/would take and whether anyone would suffer and thus avoid those actions that lead to suffering.  Classic Problem of Evil stuff.

It seems to me that if you make the reasonable assumptions that someone who calls themselves your friend would (1) make themselves known to you (otherwise, how could you have a friendship with them?  I mean, other than a completely delusional one that exists only in the mind of one party in the relationship) and (2) that this friend would explain themselves to you if you questioned their actions or motives, and the, to me, seriously overreaching assumption that (3) some god or other exists, then, again, to me, the most reasonable conclusion to draw from the facts that (1) this god doesn't make itself known to us, and (2) this god doesn't deem it necessary to explain itself when questioned by a "friend", is that this god doesn't want a friendship with humanity in the way you, CL, seem to want from it.

Sounds like you have a bit more faith in humanity than I do lol.

Perhaps you are right. I don't see it though. I think a lot of people can be stubborn and irrational, especially when dealing with something very difficult like the death of a loved one. They can just not accept or agree with God's explanation for why something bad happened, or why they didn't get that job they asked Him for... they can tell themselves that God is evil and that if He really loved them things would be different, the world would be better, etc.

But then again, this is merely a theory that makes sense to me and that I have come to agree with. I'm not going to declare it as something I have 100% confidence in. I could be wrong.

(September 1, 2015 at 11:10 am)Iroscato Wrote:

(September 1, 2015 at 11:03 am)pocaracas Wrote: It's a bill, not a Bill. Can't you read?!

Like a duck bill? You sicken me.

Lol, was it you that made a comment about poop earlier on in the thread, or was it Kevin? I can't find it now, but I wanted to let yall know everything is fine in that department.  

I already got it out of my system today, so I'm good to go. Hope it's working out in yalls favor too. 

(September 1, 2015 at 11:16 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(September 1, 2015 at 11:01 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: HN, this is specifically addressed in the article I posted on the OP:

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Yeah... No - not really. You said there's nothing in catholic teachings about hell being a "punishment". Well, apparently - there is SOMETHING, at least according to the fragment you just quoted - even if it's not the "main thing".

It's pretty clearly spelled out in the catechism, as quoted earlier - Jesus' angels, at his command will cast the sinners into the fire. Of course, I'm sure it won't be difficult to correct in the next edition of Catechism - whenever that happens. After all - for old guys wearing dresses and funny hats, who make this sh*t up for a living - there is no circle that can not be squared. They made it up - they can twist it however they like. It's not like anyone can check...

A punishment cast by God, is what I said.