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How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
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 RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 19, 2015 at 9:50 pm
(September 19, 2015 at 9:16 pm)Losty Wrote:Because it's subject to time. For example, part of the universe is the Sun. The Sun is subject to time.(September 19, 2015 at 9:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Everything other then an eternal timeless being began to exist. I've shown this in other threads.  RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 20, 2015 at 12:55 am
From what I understand from my physics courses, 20 years ago, time is a product of the expansion of the universe, literally caused by it and integral with it, as one of the dimensions. Therefore, you cannot say "what came before the Singularity", because "came before" is a product of time. We simply don't have the frame-of-reference to discuss it using the english language, to any effective degree.
It suffices to say that whether or not the mathematical models prove we have "a universe from nothing" (as Krauss and others suggest), or whether we somehow discover a way to posit that there was indeed time before the expansion of the Singularity, I suspect none of these models will incorporate "an eternal timeless being". In the words of Pierre-Simon LaPlace, "I have no need of that hypothesis."
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.  RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 20, 2015 at 12:56 am
So...the universe created time?
RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 20, 2015 at 1:03 am
(September 20, 2015 at 12:56 am)Losty Wrote: So...the universe created time? Yes, quite literally. That's why they refer to the fourth dimension as "space-time". Thank you, Albert Einstein. 
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love. RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 20, 2015 at 1:29 am
I'm pretty sure that means the universe is god
RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 20, 2015 at 1:55 am
(September 20, 2015 at 1:29 am)Losty Wrote: I'm pretty sure that means the universe is god Or Albert Einstein is. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaattt? 
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.  RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 20, 2015 at 2:40 am
(September 19, 2015 at 9:50 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:(September 19, 2015 at 9:16 pm)Losty Wrote: How do you know the universe itself is not an eternal timeless being?Because it's subject to time. For example, part of the universe is the Sun. The Sun is subject to time. Are you at all familiar with the fallacy of composition? Because this argument of yours is literally just that. You can't point to constituent parts of a thing and assert that therefore the whole is identical to those parts. What's particularly laughable about this instance is that we've barely explored the visible universe and yet you're comfortable making fiat assertions about the parts we don't even know about, and what the exterior of it is like. It's like a microbe in a puddle saying that it sees water all around it, and therefore the entirety of reality is water.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects! RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 20, 2015 at 2:44 am
I'd actually be quite impressed by a microbe having such complex thoughts, Esqui
RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 20, 2015 at 2:52 am
(September 20, 2015 at 2:44 am)Losty Wrote: I'd actually be quite impressed by a microbe having such complex thoughts, Esqui Ever tried talking to one? They have complex inner lives, damn it! 
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!  RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 20, 2015 at 8:57 am
(September 19, 2015 at 4:43 pm)Rational AKD Wrote: the wording of the premises are inconsistent... which can only lead me to believe you edited the first premise to make it more objectionable. i'm sure you won't admit to doing that since that would indeed be very dishonest of you... but i'll leave it for everyone else to decide why your premise wordings are inconsistent."Never attribute to malice that which can be easily attributed to stupidity." The "What caused God" objection is indeed inane. Any atheist who raises it demonstrates their own ignorance. The problem with it; however, is that the objection presupposes so many other things. A recalcitrant skeptic can just keep retreating into a brier patch of modern analytic dilemmas. The skeptic has no interest in developing their own consistent philosophy. They just want to tear down your ideas and walk away smirking. |
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