Popeye > Pope

(September 25, 2015 at 1:58 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: While I agree with you, would you say this is equivalent to government spending on things you deem needless, but alas it's far worse in that you cannot choose not to pay taxes to support it, and if you do, you go to prison.

No, I wouldn't say that at all, because the very man this church claims to worship abhorred the amassing of wealth. Do you think Jesus would've spent $100 million on a temple when there were 50,000 people sleeping on the streets of that very same city?

As for taxes themselves and how they're spent, I have a voice in that; it's called the vote, and it is something I exercise regularly. Did Mahoney put this awful expenditure to a vote in his archdiocese?

eta: And do you have nothing to say about my previous post? Even as the Church still engages in obfuscation regarding the pedophilia scandal, supporting that financially doesn't seem appropriate to me.

Quote:This leaves the masses little option when decrying the moral failures of their leaders.

Except to quit, king.

I still don't get how the church can claim to have a god running things, who can do anything and "provides for his followers", but it needs your money or it will fold.

How does that work?

(September 25, 2015 at 12:36 pm)lkingpinl Wrote:

(September 25, 2015 at 12:15 pm)Faith No More Wrote: The thing that bothers me the most is not that I think being a Catholic means that person condones what the hierarchy has done.  What bothers me is that I cannot, for the life of me, think of an organization that I would hold so dearly that I could allow myself to continue to identify with it after such a heinous cover up and refusal to compensate victims, especially when that organization claims to be the voice of a loving god.  How can anyone see fit to look for spiritual guidance from people that are more concerned with a holy image than they are from preventing child rape?

I get that not all Catholics are like that and that Catholicism is more than insecure men in robes and pointy hats, but we're talking about the leaders of this religion.  The head people that are supposed to get their guidance from a loving god are shuffling around child molesters, because protecting their image was more important than protecting the bodies and minds of little children.  There just comes a point where you have to jump ship no matter what, and what I'm stuck wondering is where do these Catholics that remain draw the line?  How much is too much before you're willing to stop supporting and identifying with an organization?

/suppressed emotions from having Catholic in-laws

Ok, I honestly can see BOTH sides of this.  I fully understand the emotional pull many have on here being ex-Catholic or family members who are Catholic as well as seeing the innumerable stories of pedophilia in the Church and the associated cover ups.  

Let's be fair here.  We all agree that child molestation is abhorrent.  We all agree that perpetrators and those that help them should be held accountable.  We all agree that victims should be compensated. 

Every day we support things that we may or may not know are doing immoral things or shady things.  Ever buy something at Wal-Mart?  Ever buy Nike shoes?  I'm sure you are aware of the child labor in the sweatshops over products these brands sell.  Sure it's not molestation, but is it right?  Are you supporting it when you make a purchase there, when other options are available?  

Catholics are not giving their money to intentionally support pedophilia or help cover it up, we all know this.  Just because those in power do those things, does not mean those doing good for the church need to suffer.  This is not something that can be fixed over night and admittedly they had steps in the right direction, IMO.  Most people are tithing to the local church/diocese.  If there is found something going on there and it is not swiftly dealt with, then I would agree an appropriate response would be to withhold tithing or move to a different diocese, but that's not what you seem to be proposing.  You seem to be saying, please correct me if I'm wrong, that all Catholics should stop supporting their local churches/diocese, because of the faults of others in different states/countries.  I just don't think that's fair to those doing things the right way.  I understand the motivation, but not sure it's the right answer.

My bold.

I'd also like to say that not all those in power do these things, lol. It's not like everyone in the Vatican took wrong actions. The handful of those who did are guilty, but it's not like everyone was in on it. I'm sure that's what you meant, King, but wanted to specify for the others.    

I agree with this post 100%. Thanks for explaining it when I was not of the right temperament to do so.

(September 25, 2015 at 1:58 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: While I agree with you, would you say this is equivalent to government spending on things you deem needless, but alas it's far worse in that you cannot choose not to pay taxes to support it, and if you do, you go to prison.

Also, the government does not claim moral authority. The very fact that I am compulsed to pay taxes gives me a (marginal) say in how this country is run. I pay taxes therefore I get a voice, or federally a representative that has one. Enough of me can make a change in how the country is run.

The Church claims to be the moral authority. While you may be in agreement with the Church's stated position, your "voice" is your tithe. You can withhold that tithe, especially if you feel that the Church hierarchy needs to perform its own atonement. Would Jesus give his money to this organization?

(September 25, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(September 25, 2015 at 12:36 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: Ok, I honestly can see BOTH sides of this.  I fully understand the emotional pull many have on here being ex-Catholic or family members who are Catholic as well as seeing the innumerable stories of pedophilia in the Church and the associated cover ups.  

Let's be fair here.  We all agree that child molestation is abhorrent.  We all agree that perpetrators and those that help them should be held accountable.  We all agree that victims should be compensated. 

Every day we support things that we may or may not know are doing immoral things or shady things.  Ever buy something at Wal-Mart?  Ever buy Nike shoes?  I'm sure you are aware of the child labor in the sweatshops over products these brands sell.  Sure it's not molestation, but is it right?  Are you supporting it when you make a purchase there, when other options are available?  

Catholics are not giving their money to intentionally support pedophilia or help cover it up, we all know this.  Just because those in power do those things, does not mean those doing good for the church need to suffer.  This is not something that can be fixed over night and admittedly they had steps in the right direction, IMO.  Most people are tithing to the local church/diocese.  If there is found something going on there and it is not swiftly dealt with, then I would agree an appropriate response would be to withhold tithing or move to a different diocese, but that's not what you seem to be proposing.  You seem to be saying, please correct me if I'm wrong, that all Catholics should stop supporting their local churches/diocese, because of the faults of others in different states/countries.  I just don't think that's fair to those doing things the right way.  I understand the motivation, but not sure it's the right answer.

My bold.

I'd also like to say that not all those in power do these things, lol. It's not like everyone in the Vatican took wrong actions. The handful of those who did are guilty, but it's not like everyone was in on it. I'm sure that's what you meant, King, but wanted to specify for the others.    

I agree with this post 100%. Thanks for explaining it when I was not of the right temperament to do so.

Yes I was generalizing but it is a minority of those in power.

(September 25, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'd also like to say that not all those in power do these things, lol. It's not like everyone in the Vatican took wrong actions. The handful of those who did are guilty, but it's not like everyone was in on it. I'm sure that's what you meant, King, but wanted to specify for the others.    

I agree with this post 100%. Thanks for explaining it when I was not of the right temperament to do so.

This is why people get upset when trying to have a conversation with you, C_L. You get stuck on these ideas like "not everyone was in the wrong." That is clear, and a given. No one is saying that every single person is culpable. What we are saying is that the Church as an organization is still hiding assets, obfuscating and shuffling perpetrators, and not compensating victims. Again, not every priest is a molester, but there are still people that have molested children who are active priests. There are still Churches whom the Vatican allows to claim insolvency rather than pay victims of child rape; all the while there are items in the Vatican vault whose value lies in the hundreds of millions.

Could you please respond to PT's or my statements earlier?

It seems, from my end, that you are either incapable or simply unwilling of seeing fault in the hierarchical organization as a whole---not individual priests or parishes.

(September 25, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'd also like to say that not all those in power do these things, lol.

But it's good to keep in mind that we're talking about a state, a political as well as economical organisation, which pretty often makes headlines because of shady deals. Banco Ambrosiano and it's CEO dangling from a London bridge only being one of them. Spirituality may be part of the deal for some, but it's certainly not at the forefront when dealing with the more secular problems.

I agree that this pope is refreshing as far as politics and certain socials issues are concerned, compared to his predecessors. But that doesn't change the fact, that he has a sell by date attached to his forehead, that he's as conservative as far as dogma is concerned and that noone can say, who will park his ass on the Holy See, once he's gone.

The idea remains:

Not to stop giving to the Church because you don't want to support pedophelia.

Rather to stop giving to an organization until they fix a pretty fucking big problem.