(September 29, 2015 at 12:00 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(September 28, 2015 at 11:33 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Our morality has improved in almost every measurable way, over the course of history.

Six million Jews say otherwise.

And what faith did the persecutors hold?

The vast majority of Germans in that era, including the ones who operated the death-camp machinery, were Christian.

Little good it did them in moral guidance.

(September 28, 2015 at 11:33 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Technically, it doesn't prove that at all, one way or the other, because you're both stating the facts in a misleading/skewed way.

Hey, hanging "technically" at the front of a sentence in the same manner that one dangles a carrot out in front of a horse will not make your lame, malnourished mule of an accusation any more fit to haul the argument wagon over to Validation County.

(September 28, 2015 at 11:33 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Our morality has improved in almost every measurable way, over the course of history. Still needs work in many areas, but we now almost universally recognize the abhorrence of the practice of slavery, for instance.

Yes, and the Catholic Church defended slavery, they used the Bible to endorse the practice of slavery because the Bible endorses the practice of slavery. Things tend to progress in a more positive direction once we stop taking advice from primitive death worshipers.  I don't see whatever point it is you're trying to make here.
 

(September 28, 2015 at 11:33 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Most Christians tend to view our morals as "flawed" and ever-short of an imaginary ideal of perfection, [b]and so they too tend to overlook the measurable improvements in the way humans are learning to treat one another, overall.

I'm not talking about individual Christians, I'm talking about CHRISTIANITY, the fascist doctrine, the so-called infallible divine mandate that is directly responsible for countless atrocities on every continent. Institutionalized Christianity has justified unspeakable actions by invoking God's will, and it continues to do so to this day.

(September 28, 2015 at 11:33 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Some others argue that Christianity, as the basis of Western Civilization, was the foundation for that improvement; others cite the Renaissance and Enlightenment as secular triumphs over the blind dogmatism of the Dark Ages, even changing the values subtly among the religious.

And which of those two arguments actually seems plausible to you? The Church was a force for political stability in Europe, it's doctrine encouraged expansion and conquest, these are effective traits, Christianity is undoubtedly a major contributor to the dominance the west has exerted over the last few centuries. Christianity was and is still an institution of fascist theocracy, it condemns inquiry and

(September 29, 2015 at 12:00 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(September 28, 2015 at 11:33 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Our morality has improved in almost every measurable way, over the course of history.

Six million Jews say otherwise.

Fucking Godwin. Arguing that morality hasn't improved since the Bible was written while taking into account it's importance in several stages of our history doesn't really support the Christian argument from morality very well.

(September 29, 2015 at 3:35 am)ApeNotKillApe Wrote:

---

(September 28, 2015 at 11:33 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Technically, it doesn't prove that at all, one way or the other, because you're both stating the facts in a misleading/skewed way.

Hey, hanging "technically" at the front of a sentence in the same manner that one dangles a carrot out in front of a horse will not make your lame, malnourished mule of an accusation any more fit to haul the argument wagon over to Validation County.

Our morality has improved in almost every measurable way, over the course of history. Still needs work in many areas, but we now almost universally recognize the abhorrence of the practice of slavery, for instance.

Yes, and the Catholic Church defended slavery, they used the Bible to endorse the practice of slavery because the Bible endorses the practice of slavery. Things tend to progress in a more positive direction once we stop taking advice from primitive death worshipers.  I don't see whatever point it is you're trying to make here.
 

Most Christians tend to view our morals as "flawed" and ever-short of an imaginary ideal of perfection, [b]and so they too tend to overlook the measurable improvements in the way humans are learning to treat one another, overall.[/b]
I'm not talking about individual Christians, I'm talking about CHRISTIANITY, the fascist doctrine, the so-called infallible divine mandate that is directly responsible for countless atrocities on every continent. Institutionalized Christianity has justified unspeakable actions by invoking God's will, and it continues to do so to this day.

Some others argue that Christianity, as the basis of Western Civilization, was the foundation for that improvement; others cite the Renaissance and Enlightenment as secular triumphs over the blind dogmatism of the Dark Ages, even changing the values subtly among the religious.

And which of those two arguments actually seems plausible to you? The Church was a force for political stability in Europe, it's doctrine encouraged expansion and conquest, these are effective traits, Christianity is undoubtedly a major contributor to the dominance the west has exerted over the last few centuries. Christianity was and is still an institution of fascist theocracy, it condemns inquiry and progress, that is the true nature of the doctrine, and the journey to this modern age of reason and discovery was impeded by fascist superstitions at every opportunity.

---

But it doesn't demonstrate, as you suggested, that Christianity is not a solid foundation, since he was incorrect in asserting that our morals have not improved (they have, and demonstrably so), and since they have it means that we must consider whether Christianity in western civilization was a contributing factor to this improvement. But either way, the argument cannot hinge on the idea that we haven't improved, because we clearly have. So technically, the argument is moot. 

Arguing that the Catholic church defended slavery ignores that the Abolitionist movement was in large part led by progressive-minded churchgoers, as well. The point of mentioning slavery was as a clear example that our ideas of morality have improved since the Bronze Age. Another example might be that we no longer consider women to be effective chattel, or that we can't stone children for disobedience, or kill apostates. And again, I happen to agree with you that every one of these things are concepts found in the Bible that are fascist and horrifying, and that our progress is measured in how far we've gotten past those ideas-- but they also serve as a historical recording of how far we have come, as a society. Yet that society is 75-80% Christian (at least, here in the USA), so we cannot simply pretend that it's irrelevant as a contributing factor to progress.

I agree with you that those who stick to a literalist reading of the beliefs of Bronze Age blood-god-worshiping desert tribesmen are dangerous, hostile to progress, and that " the journey to this modern age of reason and discovery was impeded by fascist superstitions at every opportunity" from that element. But it also overlooks the contributions of supremely-religious persons, who nevertheless sought to expand the understanding of the Creation, as they saw it, e.g. Kepler and Newton. But because I do consider the "true" version of Christianity to be hostile to challenges to its dogma, and our progress to be measured partly in terms of how far we have moved away from the tribalistic, violent immorality enshrined in the Bible, I'm strongly in the second camp, believing that we can attribute the overwhelming majority of the success in our improved moral thinking almost entirely to the secular elements of the Renaissance and Enlightenment philosophies.

I loathe almost everything Christianity stands for, in its unadulterated form, and agree that it has massively hampered progress, likely far more than it or its followers have added to progress. But the point you originally tried to make, that we have not improved, therefore Christianity is not a good basis for building a societal moral doctrine, is invalid because we clearly have improved. If one accepts the premise that our moral doctrines are indeed based on Christianity (I do not!) and that they have not improved, then one can have that argument... but since our moral doctrines have improved, the argument is technically moot. I suppose you could adopt those two premises for the purpose of an argument, but why?

(September 29, 2015 at 1:09 am)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(September 29, 2015 at 12:00 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Six million Jews say otherwise.

And what faith did the persecutors hold? The vast majority of Germans in that era, including the ones who operated the death-camp machinery, were Christian. Little good it did them in moral guidance.

Therefore what? The Germans invaded Poland and occupied France as part of the Great Commission to spread the Gospel? No. They did it out of an idolatrous worship of State power. The faith of the German populous was irrelevant.

My own opinion is that technology has not made us more wise, but has relieved us of the economic burdens that compromised our moral judgement. It seems to me that industrialization allowed the abolition movement to take hold among other things. At the same time, I doubt the internet would have become such a force so quickly had it not been for the ease with which it allowed pornography to be distributed. So before we go attributing all the evils in the world to religion or overstating its positive contributions we must recognize that other powerful forces are in play.

(September 29, 2015 at 9:48 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(September 29, 2015 at 1:09 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: And what faith did the persecutors hold? The vast majority of Germans in that era, including the ones who operated the death-camp machinery, were Christian. Little good it did them in moral guidance.

Therefore what? The Germans invaded Poland and occupied France as part of the Great Commission to spread the Gospel? No. They did it out of an idolatrous worship of State power. The faith of the German populous was irrelevant.

Actually, I agree with you almost 100%. The faith is relevant as a mechanism of how the Nazis got such compliance from the populace. However, you've made the same argument about Stalin to us, and ignored when we pointed out to you that it was actually Stalin's "idolatrous worship of State power", and not his atheism, that drove him to do the things he did. Seems odd that you'd bring this same argument to bear (correctly!) on Germany in defense of Christianity.

(September 29, 2015 at 9:48 am)ChadWooters Wrote: My own opinion is that technology has not made us more wise, but has relieved us of the economic burdens that compromised our moral judgement. It seems to me that industrialization allowed the abolition movement to take hold among other things. At the same time, I doubt the internet would have become such a force so quickly had it not been for the ease with which it allowed pornography to be distributed. So before we go attributing all the evils in the world to religion or overstating its positive contributions we must recognize that other powerful forces are in play.

Well, obviously I don't agree if you're implying that there are demonic "other powerful forces in play", but I don't see for sure that you are. If not, that's an outstanding summary. Well-written. Kudos and all that. (I would add the caveat that it was peoples' desire for ease of communication and access to information that drove the development of the internet, rather than porn, though I wouldn't write it off as a non-factor... but neither do I consider porn to be an inherently bad thing, except in some of the exploitation aspects, which I'd argue go with any shadowy industry; it is not an argument against porn that its female workers are so often exploited any more than it's an argument against fruit that we so often exploit vulnerable immigrant populations as barely-paid workers to keep the price down.)

To the broader point that with technology has come both great benefit and great challenges/problems, I could not agree more. Albert Einstein's letters about the problems of the nuclear age are as moving as any piece of scripture or poetry I've ever read.

(September 29, 2015 at 9:57 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: (I would add the caveat that it was peoples' desire for ease of communication and access to information that drove the development of the internet, rather than porn, though I wouldn't write it off as a non-factor... but neither do I consider porn to be an inherently bad thing, except in some of the exploitation aspects, which I'd argue go with any shadowy industry; it is not an argument against porn that its female workers are so often exploited any more than it's an argument against fruit that we so often exploit vulnerable immigrant populations as barely-paid workers to keep the price down.)

As an aside, that's a whole extra room.

OK, that's all I got.

(September 29, 2015 at 9:57 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: …you've made the same argument about Stalin to us, and ignored when we pointed out to you that it was actually Stalin's "idolatrous worship of State power", and not his atheism, that drove him to do the things he did

I’m backing away from simplistic arguments about whether faith or lack thereof were motivating forces or justifications for large scale social movements. Human history is too complex to shoehorn into that dichotomy. Faith can be a factor, but it most certainly not the only one nor is it always the most important.

(September 29, 2015 at 10:32 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(September 29, 2015 at 9:57 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: …you've made the same argument about Stalin to us, and ignored when we pointed out to you that it was actually Stalin's "idolatrous worship of State power", and not his atheism, that drove him to do the things he did

I’m backing away from simplistic arguments about whether faith or lack thereof were motivating forces or justifications for large scale social movements. Human history is too complex to shoehorn into that dichotomy. Faith can be a factor, but it most certainly not the only one nor is it always the most important.

I find myself furiously wishing we had a "high five" emoticon. So I'll settle for the greatly-inadequate thumbs-up. 

(I don't know why I'm so fascinated with emoticons, here, given my love of words.)

(September 29, 2015 at 10:32 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(September 29, 2015 at 9:57 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: …you've made the same argument about Stalin to us, and ignored when we pointed out to you that it was actually Stalin's "idolatrous worship of State power", and not his atheism, that drove him to do the things he did

I’m backing away from simplistic arguments about whether faith or lack thereof were motivating forces or justifications for large scale social movements. Human history is too complex to shoehorn into that dichotomy. Faith can be a factor, but it most certainly not the only one nor is it always the most important.

Very well said Chad.