The Atheist Obsession with Insulting Christians

[Thumpalumpacus]

Our morality has improved in almost every measurable way, over the course of history.

Six million Jews say otherwise.

And what faith did the persecutors hold?

The vast majority of Germans in that era, including the ones who operated the death-camp machinery, were Christian.

Little good it did them in moral guidance.

[ApeNotKillApe]

Technically, it doesn't prove that at all, one way or the other, because you're both stating the facts in a misleading/skewed way.

Hey, hanging "technically" at the front of a sentence in the same manner that one dangles a carrot out in front of a horse will not make your lame, malnourished mule of an accusation any more fit to haul the argument wagon over to Validation County.

Our morality has improved in almost every measurable way, over the course of history. Still needs work in many areas, but we now almost universally recognize the abhorrence of the practice of slavery, for instance.

Yes, and the Catholic Church defended slavery, they used the Bible to endorse the practice of slavery because the Bible endorses the practice of slavery. Things tend to progress in a more positive direction once we stop taking advice from primitive death worshipers.  I don't see whatever point it is you're trying to make here.
 

Most Christians tend to view our morals as "flawed" and ever-short of an imaginary ideal of perfection, [b]and so they too tend to overlook the measurable improvements in the way humans are learning to treat one another, overall.

I'm not talking about individual Christians, I'm talking about CHRISTIANITY, the fascist doctrine, the so-called infallible divine mandate that is directly responsible for countless atrocities on every continent. Institutionalized Christianity has justified unspeakable actions by invoking God's will, and it continues to do so to this day.

Some others argue that Christianity, as the basis of Western Civilization, was the foundation for that improvement; others cite the Renaissance and Enlightenment as secular triumphs over the blind dogmatism of the Dark Ages, even changing the values subtly among the religious.

And which of those two arguments actually seems plausible to you? The Church was a force for political stability in Europe, it's doctrine encouraged expansion and conquest, these are effective traits, Christianity is undoubtedly a major contributor to the dominance the west has exerted over the last few centuries. Christianity was and is still an institution of fascist theocracy, it condemns inquiry and

[Cato]

Our morality has improved in almost every measurable way, over the course of history.

Six million Jews say otherwise.

Fucking Godwin. Arguing that morality hasn't improved since the Bible was written while taking into account it's importance in several stages of our history doesn't really support the Christian argument from morality very well.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

[Neo-Scholastic]

Six million Jews say otherwise.

And what faith did the persecutors hold? The vast majority of Germans in that era, including the ones who operated the death-camp machinery, were Christian. Little good it did them in moral guidance.

Therefore what? The Germans invaded Poland and occupied France as part of the Great Commission to spread the Gospel? No. They did it out of an idolatrous worship of State power. The faith of the German populous was irrelevant.

My own opinion is that technology has not made us more wise, but has relieved us of the economic burdens that compromised our moral judgement. It seems to me that industrialization allowed the abolition movement to take hold among other things. At the same time, I doubt the internet would have become such a force so quickly had it not been for the ease with which it allowed pornography to be distributed. So before we go attributing all the evils in the world to religion or overstating its positive contributions we must recognize that other powerful forces are in play.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

And what faith did the persecutors hold? The vast majority of Germans in that era, including the ones who operated the death-camp machinery, were Christian. Little good it did them in moral guidance.

Therefore what? The Germans invaded Poland and occupied France as part of the Great Commission to spread the Gospel? No. They did it out of an idolatrous worship of State power. The faith of the German populous was irrelevant.

Actually, I agree with you almost 100%. The faith is relevant as a mechanism of how the Nazis got such compliance from the populace. However, you've made the same argument about Stalin to us, and ignored when we pointed out to you that it was actually Stalin's "idolatrous worship of State power", and not his atheism, that drove him to do the things he did. Seems odd that you'd bring this same argument to bear (correctly!) on Germany in defense of Christianity.

My own opinion is that technology has not made us more wise, but has relieved us of the economic burdens that compromised our moral judgement. It seems to me that industrialization allowed the abolition movement to take hold among other things. At the same time, I doubt the internet would have become such a force so quickly had it not been for the ease with which it allowed pornography to be distributed. So before we go attributing all the evils in the world to religion or overstating its positive contributions we must recognize that other powerful forces are in play.

Well, obviously I don't agree if you're implying that there are demonic "other powerful forces in play", but I don't see for sure that you are. If not, that's an outstanding summary. Well-written. Kudos and all that. (I would add the caveat that it was peoples' desire for ease of communication and access to information that drove the development of the internet, rather than porn, though I wouldn't write it off as a non-factor... but neither do I consider porn to be an inherently bad thing, except in some of the exploitation aspects, which I'd argue go with any shadowy industry; it is not an argument against porn that its female workers are so often exploited any more than it's an argument against fruit that we so often exploit vulnerable immigrant populations as barely-paid workers to keep the price down.)

To the broader point that with technology has come both great benefit and great challenges/problems, I could not agree more. Albert Einstein's letters about the problems of the nuclear age are as moving as any piece of scripture or poetry I've ever read.

[houseofcantor]

(I would add the caveat that it was peoples' desire for ease of communication and access to information that drove the development of the internet, rather than porn, though I wouldn't write it off as a non-factor... but neither do I consider porn to be an inherently bad thing, except in some of the exploitation aspects, which I'd argue go with any shadowy industry; it is not an argument against porn that its female workers are so often exploited any more than it's an argument against fruit that we so often exploit vulnerable immigrant populations as barely-paid workers to keep the price down.)

As an aside, that's a whole extra room.

OK, that's all I got.

[Neo-Scholastic]

…you've made the same argument about Stalin to us, and ignored when we pointed out to you that it was actually Stalin's "idolatrous worship of State power", and not his atheism, that drove him to do the things he did

I’m backing away from simplistic arguments about whether faith or lack thereof were motivating forces or justifications for large scale social movements. Human history is too complex to shoehorn into that dichotomy. Faith can be a factor, but it most certainly not the only one nor is it always the most important.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

…you've made the same argument about Stalin to us, and ignored when we pointed out to you that it was actually Stalin's "idolatrous worship of State power", and not his atheism, that drove him to do the things he did

I’m backing away from simplistic arguments about whether faith or lack thereof were motivating forces or justifications for large scale social movements. Human history is too complex to shoehorn into that dichotomy. Faith can be a factor, but it most certainly not the only one nor is it always the most important.

I find myself furiously wishing we had a "high five" emoticon. So I'll settle for the greatly-inadequate thumbs-up. 

(I don't know why I'm so fascinated with emoticons, here, given my love of words.)

[Kingpin]

…you've made the same argument about Stalin to us, and ignored when we pointed out to you that it was actually Stalin's "idolatrous worship of State power", and not his atheism, that drove him to do the things he did

I’m backing away from simplistic arguments about whether faith or lack thereof were motivating forces or justifications for large scale social movements. Human history is too complex to shoehorn into that dichotomy. Faith can be a factor, but it most certainly not the only one nor is it always the most important.

Very well said Chad.