(October 20, 2015 at 1:15 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm)alpha male Wrote: Rather, Jesus distinguished that he was not the Father. The passage above is a clear claim to equality with the Father. As the Son, Jesus humbled Himself in His earthly ministry.

God is the "father" of us all thats why in the Lords prayer it is said " OUR father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name ... "

No, he's not the father of all. Jesus told some people that the devil was their father. Maybe you should actually read the Bible, instead of c&p'ing a bunch of quotes from somewhere else.

@houseofcantor:

(October 19, 2015 at 7:38 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 19, 2015 at 7:33 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: Nascent as an adjective meaning just coming into being.

i knew that
just making sure you did
lol

soooo waiting on all the christians to explain why they believe jesus was God even though its probabally just something theyve always been told and they never really questioned it because the preacher told them it was true
still come on christians come out come out wherever you are im wondering where you are getting this from

kinda wish i wouldve put this thread in 'christianity' instead of in religion

CARM has a page on it here which you might find interesting.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:16 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 1:09 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: I'm open minded enough to know that it isn't hard to retrofit the "facts" to match the alleged prophesies. Matthew was very good at that sort of thing. I'm not impressed. So?

So, if you agree that the OT shows the messiah as God, and you agree that the NT has Jesus claiming to be the messiah, then you disagree with the claim that "even the Bible says that Jesus was not God."

messiah did not mean "God" for the jews . jews were not expecting the messiah to be God

(October 20, 2015 at 12:42 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 11:45 am)Crossless1 Wrote: Is it your contention that Jesus' self-characterizations and references to his relationship with Yahweh found in the Synoptic Gospels are essentially the same as what is found in John?

The synoptics are just as strong on Jesus' divinity if you look into messianic prophecies. For example, you know that the messiah was supposed to be descended from David.

Well, it's more than that, eh?

Quote:“THE CRITERIA TO BE FULFILLED BY THE JEWISH MESSIAH
In an accurate translation of the Jewish Scriptures, the word "Moshiach" is never translated as "Messiah," but as "anointed."1Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by G-d to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah.
These specific criteria are as follows:
1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)
2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)
5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)
All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel chapter 37:24-28:
"And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah.”

~from http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Debunki...Page26.htm

In this context, clearly "the Messiah" and "Jesus" are separate individuals. What exactly are you arguing here?

(October 20, 2015 at 1:16 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 1:09 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: I'm open minded enough to know that it isn't hard to retrofit the "facts" to match the alleged prophesies. Matthew was very good at that sort of thing. I'm not impressed. So?

So, if you agree that the OT shows the messiah as God, and you agree that the NT has Jesus claiming to be the messiah, then you disagree with the claim that "even the Bible says that Jesus was not God."

I disagree with the claim that the Bible says Jesus was not also God, since there are obviously passages that make the claim. I also pointed out that there is not one consistent Jesus presented in the NT and that Christians conflate the different sources to suit their purposes and only feel justified in doing so because each of the NT books has the stamp of orthodox approval. Lacking that, and presented with these books as the separate accounts they were before the NT was compiled and voted on, no honest reader would be able to conflate the accounts they way believers do.

And I pointed out that the Christian spin on the prophesies remains disputed by the Jews to this day.

(October 20, 2015 at 2:53 am)Ayen Wrote: Good analysis. I must have read the four Gospels more times than any other book in the bible while I was a Christian and never made this connection. After becoming atheist I had no reason to really think about it anymore. Guess I can't say God sacrificed himself in the name of himself anymore. He's still a terrible father.

You can certainly say it if a Christian asserts that "Jesus is Lord."

(October 20, 2015 at 1:21 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: messiah did not mean "God" for the jews . jews were not expecting the messiah to be God

Feel free to support that. I gave passages supporting my position. You give nothing to support your own, or to refute mine.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:15 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm)alpha male Wrote: Rather, Jesus distinguished that he was not the Father. The passage above is a clear claim to equality with the Father. As the Son, Jesus humbled Himself in His earthly ministry.

God is the "father" of us all thats why in the Lords prayer it is said " OUR father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name ... "

John 20:16-18 :
16 Jesus saith unto her,Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

Wouldn't that be a consequence of trinity? Do you believe in trinity?

The OP assumes the Bible is internally consistent in its doctrines and teachings. I don't think the assumption is warranted at all.