(October 22, 2015 at 11:56 am)Hmmm? Wrote:

(October 22, 2015 at 10:55 am)alpha male Wrote: You're the one viewing it through a desired outcome. Jesus was much more than a "mystical teacher of the path to enlightenment" in the synoptics. He performed miracles, claimed to be the messiah, accepted worship, claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath, etc. He was not just a teacher.

Who did he say was lord of the sabbath? (Mt 12:8, Mk 2:28, Lk 6:5)

...who's the son of man?

As already noted:

Daniel 7
13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus had plenty of opportunity to say that God was 3 and not 1 , but he never said God was 3 in 1 ever , never claimed to be God ever and always said that God was ONE ( just like the Old Testament said that God was ONE) ...

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words"our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD. ( also note " ONE LORD " never once did Jesus speak of a 3 in 1 type God )

Jesus never said that He was God only that He was Gods son , which in the Old Testament there are several . Jesus studied the OT and knew what the term " son " meant it meant servant to someone who studied and understood the Old Testament . that is what son of God meant and that is logically what He meant by it how the jews understood it . Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi so son of God meant nothing other than that not to HIM anyways .....


In the Old Testament , which jesus studied , a ' son of God ' refers to the righteous who become conscious of God's fatherhood to his creation. a servant who has a close relationship with God.

All four Gospels record Jesus as saying,“Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.”

When we ask the Jews themselves as to what the reasons are that they cannot accept Yahushua (Jesus) as Messiah, we get many different answers. However, there is one answer which is always listed as the number one reason for their inability to accept him as Messiah—the question of deity. The Christian claim that Jesus the Messiah was God which goes against scripture and the messianic writings .


[i]so do we trust what Jesus Himself said about Himself and His relationship to God which is in line with scripture and Jewish teaching or the belief that others claim that Jesus is God ?[/i]
 
John 20:17 Jesus said "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "  jesus clearly put himself among other humans and not above other humans

(October 22, 2015 at 12:39 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: Jesus had plenty of opportunity to say that God was 3 and not 1 , but he never said God was 3 in 1 ever , never claimed to be God ever and always said that God was ONE ( just like the Old Testament said that God was ONE) ...

Matt 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Looks like 3 to me. Also in John 14:

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

And John 16:

8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

(October 20, 2015 at 12:42 pm)alpha male Wrote: The synoptics are just as strong on Jesus' divinity if you look into messianic prophecies. For example, you know that the messiah was supposed to be descended from David.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:30 pm)alpha male Wrote: And there's more than that, too. So much so that some Jews speculated that there must be two messiahs to fulfill all the prophecies: messiab ben David, the triumphant messiah; and messiah ben Joseph, the suffering messiah. As it turns out, it's not two messiahs, with one advent each. It's one messiah, with two advents. Remember, the Bible doesn't end with the gospels. The unfulfilled prophecies will be fulfilled in the end, as described in the OT and in Revelation.

Why do they say the messiah was supposed to be descended from David? (Mt 22:42, Mk 12:35, Lk 20:41)

(October 22, 2015 at 12:06 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(October 22, 2015 at 11:56 am)Hmmm? Wrote: Who did he say was lord of the sabbath? (Mt 12:8, Mk 2:28, Lk 6:5)

...who's the son of man?

As already noted:

Daniel 7
13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

so even if he did have a vision of jesus how does that make this son of man God?!

---

If jesus' father was really GOD and NOT from the seed of David then jesus cannot be the Messiah because the Messiah  of prophesy was promised to be from the family line of David . If  jesus was God and if Jesus' father was actually God then not only did Jesus LIE when he said that he was a descendent of David but he is also NOT the Messiah . he is just a liar and God incarnate ....  so which is he because Jesus cannot be both

jesus made a detailed effort at showing how he was a decendent of David why did he do this if that was just a deception and in fact his father was God? why did he lie about his lineage to try and trick people into thinking he was the Messiah of scripture?

dont you see this is the reason why the Jews cannot accept Jesus as the Messiah because of the claim that his father is God , the Messiah was to be a descendent of David . you christians claim that Jesus is a descendent of God not David or that is what you Christians are claiming so how can they accept him as the Messiah when it completely goes against scripture ?

(October 22, 2015 at 1:21 pm)Hmmm? Wrote: Why do they say the messiah was supposed to be descended from David? (Mt 22:42, Mk 12:35, Lk 20:41)

Due to messianic prophecies, such as:

Isaiah 9

6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

(October 22, 2015 at 1:34 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: so even if he did have a vision of jesus how does that make this son of man God?!

Because he was able to approach God freely, which mere men cannot do, and he was promised an everlasting kingdom.

Quote:If jesus' father was really GOD and NOT from the seed of David then jesus cannot be the Messiah because the Messiah  of prophesy was promised to be from the family line of David . If  jesus was God and if Jesus' father was actually God then not only did Jesus LIE when he said that he was a descendent of David but he is also NOT the Messiah . he is just a liar and God incarnate ....  so which is he because Jesus cannot be both

See Isaiah 9 in the post above. Today's jews don't like it, but the prophecies showed that the messiah would be divine. So, how do you have a messiah who is both divine, and a human descended from David? How about - 1 parent was god, the OTHER parent was a human descended from David. you seem to forget that people have two parents.

Quote:jesus made a detailed effort at showing how he was a decendent of David why did he do this if that was just a deception and in fact his father was God? why did he lie about his lineage to try and trick people into thinking he was the Messiah of scripture?

Jesus didn't, Matthew and Luke did, and they did so because the Davidic lineage was an important part of the prophecies.

Quote:dont you see this is the reason why the Jews cannot accept Jesus as the Messiah because of the claim that his father is God , the Messiah was to be a descendent of David . you christians claim that Jesus is a descendent of God not David or that is what you Christians are claiming so how can they accept him as the Messiah when it completely goes against scripture ?

Again, see Isaiah 9 and other messianic prophecies. The messiah was to be BOTH divine and a descendant of David.

I'm wondering, John, have you not read what David did? (Matthew 12:3, Mark 2:25, Luke 6:3)

1 Samuel 20-22 (the story), Psalms 52 (david's contemplation)...the story continues through 1 Kings ch 2... it is a lot to read

When you run across your point just let me know!

(October 22, 2015 at 2:33 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(October 22, 2015 at 1:21 pm)Hmmm? Wrote: Why do they say the messiah was supposed to be descended from David? (Mt 22:42, Mk 12:35, Lk 20:41)

Due to messianic prophecies, such as:

Isaiah 9

6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

why did Jesus claim a relation to David if he had no relation to David?