(October 26, 2015 at 12:30 am)Thena323 Wrote:

(October 25, 2015 at 10:27 pm)Delicate Wrote: I don't believe there are NO points of contention over core doctrine. I just think there are so few that when atheists harp on doctrinal diversity, they are talking about a far smaller pool of differences than they imagine.

*my posts copied from your "Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?" thread*

#271 Is a baptism considered legitimate if it's performed on an infant? Does one even have to be baptized to get to Heaven or does one gain entrance through grace alone? Is simply accepting the Holy Spirit considered baptism? Or is actual immersion required?

Before you dismiss these as minor differences, consider what's at stake according to those who believe it.

#273 The pathway to salvation is a big fucking deal, is it not?

You've been asked about this numerous times and haven't attempted to address it, as far as I know.

Baptism is not a core doctrine. People don't go to hell on the basis of their preferred method of baptism. And yes, this is after what's at stake for those who believe it.

The pathway to salvation would be a core doctrine, to the extent that there are people who hold a view that might cause them to lose their salvation. These differences are in fact relevant, and if an atheist wants to assert that there is soooo mucchhhhhh doctrinal diversity over this issue, my response would be "Well asserted. Now where's the evidence?"

I might also stroke my chin and twirl my invisible moustache, but only because that's a peripheral doctrinal practise on my part.

You don't think so.....but True Christians™ disagree.  You can and will go to hell if your baptism isn't performed correctly.  Can a bum baptize you, can you baptize yourself?  Is the baptism of children effective or must one wait until adulthood?  Does one need to be baptized -at all-?  There's a great deal of diversity over this one little thing, deciding that it isn't core is simply dismissing all those schisms which have decided that it is, that it's important enough - to them- to separate themselves somehow from the rest of you lot.

I think I'm detecting a pattern, though.  Anything that isn't important to you, isn't core doctrine.  Well, I'm afraid that you don't get to decide that for the tens of thousands of christian sects in existence.  You aren't the final arbitrater.  They are, and they've decided.  Deal with it.

(October 26, 2015 at 12:03 am)Delicate Wrote:

(October 25, 2015 at 11:25 pm)Losty Wrote: You have serious issues. Are you completely blind to the fact that many of us were Christians? Many of us were fed that very story as children. It's a great way to terrify your children into believing in god and following the rules.

Read the underlined. Then read the bolded. Understand what the bolded says. Then see that you're making my point.

Rinse and repeat until you finally notice that people looking to terrify their kids is not motivated by anything Christianity says, but is motivated by what people want to misuse to further their goals.

It feels like there's a correlation between atheism and reading comprehension deficiencies/fallacious thinking.

It appears there is a correlation between being you and being a condescending dick.

I wonder how many Christians you will convince that believing in god has nothing to do with Christianity

(October 25, 2015 at 10:22 pm)Delicate Wrote: If it can be proven that, for instance, Christian theism is rationally tenable [...]

Fat chance with that.

(October 26, 2015 at 12:48 am)Rhythm Wrote: You don't think so.....but True Christians™ disagree.  You can and will go to hell if your baptism isn't performed correctly.  Can a bum baptize you, can you baptize yourself?  Is the baptism of children effective or must one wait until adulthood?  Does one need to be baptized -at all-?  There's a great deal of diversity over this one little thing, deciding that it isn't core is simply dismissing all those schisms which have decided that it is, that it's important enough - to them- to separate themselves somehow from the rest of you lot.

I think I'm detecting a pattern, though.  Anything that isn't important to you, isn't core doctrine.  Well, I'm afraid that you don't get to decide that for the tens of thousands of christian sects in existence.  You aren't the final arbitrater.  They are, and they've decided.  Deal with it.

Okay I'm going to read you charitably here. Nobody believes you'll go to hell if baptism isn't performed correctly. But there is a pretty widespread divide over the question of baptismal regeneration. That is, whether salvation is tied to baptism.

So strictly speaking, I've guided you to an issue that, potentially, meets the criteria for a serious, widespread doctrinal divide. Maybe because I'm bored of watching atheists fail day in day out.

But if you look at every denomination that affirms baptismal regeneration, virtually all of them reject the view that if you don't get baptism you'll go to hell tout court. In the case of the Catholics, they are explicit about this. And I'm pretty sure the others are too. Strictly speaking no denomination believes that no baptism entails hell. 

What does this mean for Christians? Widespread confusion? Only in the imagination of atheists. Once you become a Christian and want a relationship with God, it's only natural to want to be baptized. I can't think of any Christian who doesn't want to be baptized. So will this ever be a problem for Christians? Only in the imagination of atheists.

So the bottom line is, when you're ready to drop the irrational anger and hate and finally come to God, who loves you, you have nothing to worry about.

(October 26, 2015 at 2:25 am)Delicate Wrote: Okay I'm going to read you charitably here. Nobody believes you'll go to hell if baptism isn't performed correctly.

Yes, they do.  Maybe you don't..but who cares? They certainly don't give a shit whether or not you, Delicate, believe what they believe. They're going to go ahead and keep on believing it regardless of your sage pronouncements.

Quote:But there is a pretty widespread divide over the question of baptismal regeneration. That is, whether salvation is tied to baptism.

Sounds like an important disagreement.  You've used the term, you have no excuse for not knowing what it means at this point.

Quote:So strictly speaking, I've guided you to an issue that, potentially, meets the criteria for a serious, widespread doctrinal divide. Maybe because I'm bored of watching atheists fail day in day out.

Maybe you feel compelled to take the credit for the work of another...but you're a christian..so that's to be expected.  

Quote:But if you look at every denomination that affirms baptismal regeneration, virtually all of them reject the view that if you don't get baptism you'll go to hell tout court. In the case of the Catholics, they are explicit about this. And I'm pretty sure the others are too. Strictly speaking no denomination believes that no baptism entails hell. 

Many denominations believe that without salvation we are destined to burn.  Yet another important issue of contention.  If you need to be baptised to be saved, and if, without that salvation...you are destined to burn....then failing to be baptized or baptized properly will, indeed, consign one to hell.

Quote:What does this mean for Christians? Widespread confusion? Only in the imagination of atheists. Once you become a Christian and want a relationship with God, it's only natural to want to be baptized. I can't think of any Christian who doesn't want to be baptized. So will this ever be a problem for Christians? Only in the imagination of atheists.

Oh?  Is it, because some christians don't practice baptism at all........

Quote:So the bottom line is, when you're ready to drop the irrational anger and hate and finally come to God, who loves you, you have nothing to worry about.

Reciprocity is the difference between love and stalking.  God doesn't love me, god is stalking me by proxy....you.

(October 26, 2015 at 2:25 am)Delicate Wrote: So the bottom line is, when you're ready to drop the irrational anger and hate and finally come to God, who loves you, you have nothing to worry about.

It was bound to happen eventually Thump, some of these guys just need a nudge to put them over the edge quicker.

"So the bottom line is, when you're ready to drop the irrational anger and hate and finally come to God, who loves you, you have nothing to worry about."

Liar. If you are not baptized, your sins will not be washed away, and you will have no salvation.

http://www.equip.org/article/baptism-theology/