Quote: I could be complicit in killing you.......

It's something to consider.

(October 29, 2015 at 6:23 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(October 29, 2015 at 6:20 pm)MentalGiant Wrote: Now your getting the picture! Stop fucking coddling people and let them deal with the consequences of their own fucking actions.

It's not an issue of getting the picture, I already got the picture.  I don't like the picture.  I don't see what place it has in our healthcare system.

Quote:You don't HAVE to opt out, but if you do, you deal with the consequences. Simple.

Not simple.  I can't refuse you treatment on the grounds you've offered.  I could be complicit in killing you.......

Quote:I'm an adult, and I'm capable of making my own informed decisions. Let me lie in the bed I made for myself, I don't need the government to tuck me in, read me a story and watch me as I sleep in the name of "my own good". People are to fucking overly sensitive and soft these days and it's sending society straight down the toilet. The ACA is a step in a very dangerous direction and treading a very thin line into governmental control over your physical body. Every life is not special, we're all going to die and people just need to fucking get over their fear of pain and death.

Yes, you are an adult, but clearly that doesn;t stop you from making poor choices, such as opting out on the grounds that you are willing to pay for your medical care out of pocket.  

Quote:I also think those who make detrimental choices in regards to their lifestyle (i.e. druggies, alcoholics, the morbidly obese by choice, smokers ect...) should not receive funds from the taxpayer pool either. Poor choices shouldn't be rewarded and/or encouraged. The ONLY people I think should be unequivocally required to have insurance and healthcare are children and minors under 18 since they are not of an age to make informed decisions about their healthcare. Let adults chose for themselves, and deal with their choices (which may be getting turned away if they can't pay, their choice not to hold insurance after all).

Perhaps we shouldn't give funds to people who prefer magic over medicine either........

I'm getting you also don't support assisted suicide or the right to die either? W're all special snowflakes and should prolong the inevitable as long as humanly possible regardless of quality of life or individual wishes bullshit? If I can tick a box that says you can legally harvest my organs should I die (a definite non-no otherwise), a DNR that states I do not want to be resuscitated in the event my heart stops (another scenario a doctor would otherwise be complicit in killing me if I did not sign off on), why can't I sign something that says I willingly accept that I will not be provided medical treatment except on a cash up front basis, therefore removing all liability from a doctor who then refuses treatment based on my inability to pay? I very seriously doubt many people would opt out on those terms, but it needs to be an option for those adults who choose to. Everyone else can be part of the system where they pay in and get healthcare of the variety they choose.

Quote:why can't I sign something that says I willingly accept that I will not be provided medical treatment except on a cash up front basis, therefore removing all liability from a doctor who then refuses treatment based on my inability to pay?

For starters, you'd be forcing other people to comply with the death sentence you've given yourself for the crime of poverty, hell, just for not being rich...  

You can sign something like that all you like, I don't think anyone is going to give a shit, and it won't be worth the paper it's printed on.  We don't need any laws or any healthcare system supporting that, you can just take your poor ass out into the woods and die.  Honestly, the quicker you and those who think like this go ahead and do that, the quicker we'll be able to afford caring for the rest of us who don't have some absurd wealth based criteria for life.

(October 29, 2015 at 6:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:why can't I sign something that says I willingly accept that I will not be provided medical treatment except on a cash up front basis, therefore removing all liability from a doctor who then refuses treatment based on my inability to pay?

For starters, you'd be forcing other people to comply with the death sentence you've given yourself for the crime of poverty.  

DNR's already do that. Patients can also refuse medication and medical procedures that would be 'lifesaving'. So in your ideal world, I would be forced to receive medical care I do not want just to make the doctor rest easier? 

I would imagine many poor people who WANTED health insurance will or have already signed up for obamacare and are receiving the medical care they CHOOSE to have. I am not poor by circumstance though, I am low income by choice. I come from an affluent family, I could suck up to them and leech like my cousins do, but I don't. My husband and I just choose not to lead a materialistic lifestyle, and thus, do not need or want excess amounts of money nor all the bullshit that comes with earning it. My issue is mostly about not wanting to be forced to undergo procedures/treatments/exams I DON'T WANT whilst still having to pay for those I DO WANT.  It's like being told "the government is forcing you to buy the red SUV when you want the blue car. You can still buy the blue car too but you still have to pay for the red SUV AND your neighbor with 57 accidents and 21 DUI's red SUV too since they keep crashing theirs.". It's a matter of principle.

I also do not trust the government one iota not to (at some point) begin requiring certain things (like gynecological exams, mammograms, colonoscopies ect...) to remain insured yet penalize/arrest you for not being insured, therefore forcing you into having these exams and procedures done like it or not. That also opens the door to then require treatment be administered, like it or not, if a problem is uncovered. That removes individual choice over their own body. I don't like the government meddling in this stuff and just want no part. Come up with a better system with less government involvement, and maybe I'll nibble and entertain the notion of becoming insured again. I did have health insurance before it became a governmental mandate to have it and to pay for other people who take shit care of themselves to have it too. Dropped it as soon as uncle Sam stuck his grubby little fingers in the pot.

No, DNR's do not read  "don't treat me, because I'm poor"

You're out of your fucking mind, lol. 


It's not an issue of buying the two cars..only one of which you want. You want a car that isn't part of the program.

(October 29, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, DNR's do not read  "don't treat me, because I'm poor"

You're out of your fucking mind, lol. 

No, DNR states do not treat me because it's a decision I have made for myself. I am not saying poor people shouldn't have an option for healthcare and insurance if they so choose at all. I am saying anyone (rich or poor) should have the option to opt out of the system IF they sign a declaration removing financial liability from the taxpayer and legal obligation from the doctor until they do sign up and begin paying in like everyone else. It has nothing to do with socioeconomic status, it has to do with personal choices. I very seriously doubt many people would put themselves in that position and most would have the insurance, go to the doctor when they felt they needed and not have to worry. I suppose in the moments prior to death I could also wish to revoke my DNR yet still be unable to communicate that and die because of my choice. Oh well, make a different decision if you don't think you can deal with the one you currently have in place.

Edit: The problem is there is only one car available to choose from that you are being REQUIRED to buy and on top of that, you have to pay for your irresponsible neighbors car too, leaving very little if anything to pay for the car you actually wanted in the first place (and you also have no option not to own a car either)!

(October 29, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You're out of your fucking mind, lol.

The same might also be said of you.

(October 29, 2015 at 7:30 pm)MentalGiant Wrote: No, DNR states do not treat me because it's a decision I have made for myself.

You and I are never going to see eye to eye on this one..but who cares?  Does Obamacare prevent you from signing a DNR.  Nope.  If you sign a DNR, privately, for reasons of "because I don't think I could afford the R part and subsequent treatment" - that's your business, and you can do that.  If you decide to simply not go to a doctor..you can do that to.  Obamacare doesn't prevent you from achieving your ends.

Quote:I am not saying poor people shouldn't have an option for healthcare and insurance if they so choose at all. I am saying anyone (rich or poor) should have the option to opt out of the system IF they sign a declaration removing financial liability from the taxpayer and legal obligation from the doctor until they do sign up and begin paying in like everyone else. It has nothing to do with socioeconomic status, it has to do with personal choices. I very seriously doubt many people would put themselves in that position and most would have the insurance, go to the doctor when they felt they needed and not have to worry. I suppose in the moments prior to death I could also wish to revoke my DNR yet still be unable to communicate that and die because of my choice. Oh well, make a different decision if you don't think you can deal with the one you currently have in place.

We would find it very difficult to let them opt out.  We would need to change other laws, and a significant portion of medical practice as we see it, to allow for people to choose to die....for having been poor.  That's not a country I want to live in.  

Quote:Edit: The problem is there is only one car available to choose from that you are being REQUIRED to buy and on top of that, you have to pay for your irresponsible neighbors car too, leaving very little if anything to pay for the car you actually wanted in the first place (and you also have no option not to own a car either)!

Get richer then...you're the one who thinks that your wealth is some arbitrator of what you do or don't deserve or should have made available to you, not me.  Hilariously, you seem to think that illness is all due to some lacking moral personality trait in the other person.  How irresponsible of me, to have been hit by a drunk driver........how irresponsible of me, to have luekemia.......how irresponsible of me, to have a handicapped child.

The reason that we require everyone to pay in..is precisely -so- that no one is a drain on the system. If we let people opt out...due to how we handle medical care, they'd still get it...and that cost would still be born by other consumers. The only difference would be that we let irresponsible scammers like yourself opt out, an irresponsible decision...lol.

You know what else you could do..to get rid of this egregious tax in your life...you could join the service. Vets don't need to pay the tax -or- find their own provider. VA, baby.

(October 29, 2015 at 7:37 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: The same might also be said of you.

I try my best to encourage the suspicion every now and again.

(October 29, 2015 at 5:52 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:I think it would be fair to give an "opt out" (as in opt out of paying into the system entirely, both on individual policies and your tax dollars going to others) to those of us who don't want to participate if you are willing to be 100% financially responsible for any medical bills you incur. As I said, I believe in natural selection. I would not seek treatment for any major disease that was not natural. My body, my choice.

Willing to be financially responsible does not equal -capable- of being financially responsible, and our healthcare system isn't set up (nor should it be) as an aide to natural selection....

"Hey uh, I know I said I was willing, turns out I can't afford it."  

"Hey uh, I said I wouldn't seek treatment, but this cancer will kill me if I don't"

What do we do, tell you to go fuck off and die for your "principles"?  Thanks, no thanks. Make a never ending and massive stream of exceptions to the rule?  What's the point of the rule then?

That would be a case of special pleading if it's not to be applied in other areas as well. Opt out of having your tax dollars go to paying the police, fire departments, public works, sewage, military etc., if your willing to be 100$ financially responsible for such services when you need them.

The tax system is confusing enough without having everybody pick and choose what their individual tax dollars can and cannot pay for.

(October 29, 2015 at 8:21 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: The tax system is confusing enough without having everybody pick and choose what their individual tax dollars can and cannot pay for.

Then make it a general tax across the board. Not a specific tax and penalty directly related to healthcare.