(November 13, 2015 at 3:47 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: No, I'm not racist.

Isn't that what every racist starts off by saying?

(November 13, 2015 at 9:59 pm)ronedee Wrote:

(November 13, 2015 at 3:47 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: No, I'm not racist.

Isn't that what every racist starts off by saying?

Hey now!!  I just started that way because I thought "why the Hebrews?" could have been construed as anti-Semitic.  And then I kind of insulted them, because I referred to them as less technologically savvy than other nations at the time of Christ.  I can compound my obvious racism and ignorance by saying that I have Jewish friends who would probably yell at me if they read my post.       I have a lot of Jewish friends . . . funny, a lot of them don't think god exists either.  They're Jewish, they do the Passover and Yom Kippur stuff, it doesn't mean much.  Then I have another Jewish friend who is Orthodox, wears a yarmulke and mezzuzah, won't eat my cooking because it couldn't possibly be kosher, and believes fervently.  -- But now I'm rambling . . .

(November 13, 2015 at 9:48 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Right Wyrd.  I don't believe god exists.  I don't think that spirits go to an afterlife.  I think that "god" is just a means of control - a way for priests to gain power, a way for warriors to imagine they have the protection of a powerful invisible being who is on their side, etc.

I was raised right-wing Protestant xtian.  I'm pretty read up on the fairy tale.  I know that some folks believe that the "good" people who lived before Jesus would be saved.  (Most apparently believe that only applies to observant Jews though.)   What I'm saying is, that I have never heard a good explanation from a Christian, a preacher, a priest, a theologian, etc., about what their church's stance is on the "other" nations.  There are enough preachers on this forum, there are enough bible scholars, surely someone has run across an explanation that . . . well, some folks thought made some sense.  Because I have never found a decent answer.

The official fairy tale answer to that question can be found in Romans 2:12-29 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...;MEV;VOICE

(November 13, 2015 at 10:46 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(November 13, 2015 at 9:48 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Right Wyrd.  I don't believe god exists.  I don't think that spirits go to an afterlife.  I think that "god" is just a means of control - a way for priests to gain power, a way for warriors to imagine they have the protection of a powerful invisible being who is on their side, etc.

I was raised right-wing Protestant xtian.  I'm pretty read up on the fairy tale.  I know that some folks believe that the "good" people who lived before Jesus would be saved.  (Most apparently believe that only applies to observant Jews though.)   What I'm saying is, that I have never heard a good explanation from a Christian, a preacher, a priest, a theologian, etc., about what their church's stance is on the "other" nations.  There are enough preachers on this forum, there are enough bible scholars, surely someone has run across an explanation that . . . well, some folks thought made some sense.  Because I have never found a decent answer.

The official fairy tale answer to that question can be found in Romans 2:12-29 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...;MEV;VOICE

Yes, Wyrd, but what does that MEAN?  It seems to say what I have heard before - that there are those "who do not have the Law" but who have good hearts anyway. After death, god will look into their hearts and judge them accordingly.  

Well, that's pretty word salad, isn't it?  That's precisely the type of non-answer a preacher who really believes that he, his congregation, and a few scattered others are going to heaven, and the rest of the (tiny little flat world) are evil monsters who will go to hell - except a few other special ones that he just hasn't met yet.
     If you go by Jesus' "no man cometh to the Father except through me" - - which apologists explain multiple ways; most historians believe Jesus never said; and most evangelicals take to mean "if you don't love Jesus you can go to hell" - - well, then, this is a huge contradiction, isn't it?   If you think like most xtians, non-xtians will burn, period.  
     If you think like a lot of liberal xtians (including, apparently, the current Pope), then there are many paths to god.  And anyone of any different faith who has a good heart, searches for god, tries to be good, gets a pass.

Anyone who does not have the law but is good gets a pass?  Anyone who has heard the law but then doesn't follow it goes to hell?  There are so many problems with this that it would take me more time than I have right now to type it all out.  Here's just one issue: a god that can judge a pure heart surely knows that people raised in a "different" religion are very unlikely to abandon it.  But according to that Romans passage, if they read about what xtians believe, then they know of the law - even though it will seem ridiculous to them.  But now they are doomed, because they know.  

And if god decides they were good even if they were raised in the wrong religion, and lets them avoid eternal damnation, then yes, he has just completely circumvented the sacrifice of Jesus.  Which means it wasn't necessary.  Which means, as another thread says, Christianity implodes.  The message would be "just be good, no matter what you believe, or even if you don't believe in god" - a message that I like, that makes most theologians scream.

No, this scripture passage doesn't really answer the question.  It was probably meant to, for those who were discouraged from asking questions.  But if you dig a little, it falls apart.

(November 14, 2015 at 12:26 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(November 13, 2015 at 10:46 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The official fairy tale answer to that question can be found in Romans 2:12-29 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...;MEV;VOICE

Yes, Wyrd, but what does that MEAN?  It seems to say what I have heard before - that there are those "who do not have the Law" but who have good hearts anyway. After death, god will look into their hearts and judge them accordingly.  

Well, that's pretty word salad, isn't it?  That's precisely the type of non-answer a preacher who really believes that he, his congregation, and a few scattered others are going to heaven, and the rest of the (tiny little flat world) are evil monsters who will go to hell - except a few other special ones that he just hasn't met yet.
     If you go by Jesus' "no man cometh to the Father except through me" - - which apologists explain multiple ways; most historians believe Jesus never said; and most evangelicals take to mean "if you don't love Jesus you can go to hell" - - well, then, this is a huge contradiction, isn't it?   If you think like most xtians, non-xtians will burn, period.  
     If you think like a lot of liberal xtians (including, apparently, the current Pope), then there are many paths to god.  And anyone of any different faith who has a good heart, searches for god, tries to be good, gets a pass.

Anyone who does not have the law but is good gets a pass?  Anyone who has heard the law but then doesn't follow it goes to hell?  There are so many problems with this that it would take me more time than I have right now to type it all out.  Here's just one issue: a god that can judge a pure heart surely knows that people raised in a "different" religion are very unlikely to abandon it.  But according to that Romans passage, if they read about what xtians believe, then they know of the law - even though it will seem ridiculous to them.  But now they are doomed, because they know.  

And if god decides they were good even if they were raised in the wrong religion, and lets them avoid eternal damnation, then yes, he has just completely circumvented the sacrifice of Jesus.  Which means it wasn't necessary.  Which means, as another thread says, Christianity implodes.  The message would be "just be good, no matter what you believe, or even if you don't believe in god" - a message that I like, that makes most theologians scream.

No, this scripture passage doesn't really answer the question.  It was probably meant to, for those who were discouraged from asking questions.  But if you dig a little, it falls apart.

Paul created the Jesus character from his hallucination when he had heat stroke on the road to Damascus.  Paul used the Jesus character to sell his religion of resurrection.  Later on Paul's disciples wrote the back story to show why Jesus was worthy of worship and to develop the character so that people could relate to him.  They added their own BS to the story.  When the English wrote the Bible they threw in their own BS to show that it was all a joke.  And now, thousands of years later, modern intelligent people still believe in silly Middle Eastern ethnocentric Jewish and Arabian religious fairy tales.

We really need to be hit with a giant asteroid.

The last time an xtian and I discussed "What happens to the people not exposed to xtainaty" the response was "I don't know and don't have to know. However, god knows and that's all that matters". Basically, they didn't care because it didn't concern them. Selfish self consumed bastard!

I think the better question is - why did Yahweh choose Abraham.

(November 14, 2015 at 6:06 pm)Cecelia Wrote: I think the better question is - why did Yahweh choose Abraham.

The crazy old coot Abraham was the perfect toady.  He did exactly as he was told to do at all times.  Everyone else in the Bible used their own brains once in a while.

https://youtu.be/ZyX4LPUeDoE

(November 14, 2015 at 6:52 pm)Minimalist Wrote: https://youtu.be/ZyX4LPUeDoE

Yep, he was one nutty old pervert.