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November 14, 2015 at 7:21 pm (This post was last modified: November 14, 2015 at 7:58 pm by Lek.)
My opinion is that people are "saved" based upon how they respond to the light that God has given them. Scripture says that Jesus died for all mankind, not just for some. Paul says in the first chapter of the book of Romans that nature reveals God and no one is without an excuse not to believe. I believe that if a person responds to God, knowing that he is a sinner and is need of God, then he knows Christ, who came to supply that need. I don't think a person must know Jesus by name to be saved, but that he or she is only saved through him and his sacrifice.
And as soon as you can demonstrate that there is a reality to your beliefs it might be impressive. Right now, it's just a load of crap invented by ancient goat herders.
(November 14, 2015 at 7:23 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And as soon as you can demonstrate that there is a reality to your beliefs it might be impressive. Right now, it's just a load of crap invented by ancient goat herders.
November 14, 2015 at 10:24 pm (This post was last modified: November 14, 2015 at 10:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
In point of fact, actually, until you do some work. That's too much to ask though, isn't it? Probably has something to do with why you aren't taken seriously, huh?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(November 14, 2015 at 7:23 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And as soon as you can demonstrate that there is a reality to your beliefs it might be impressive. Right now, it's just a load of crap invented by ancient goat herders.
In your opinion, of course.
And of course YOUR opinion that it is all real is so much more well-researched, huh?
(November 15, 2015 at 3:02 am)robvalue Wrote: If I didn't exist and I had to somehow convince people that I did, I'd pick the most irrational and superstitious group of people available.
It seems like non-God chose well.
Based on the biblical stories they couldn't go more than five minutes without worshiping something.
(November 13, 2015 at 3:47 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: No, I'm not racist. The following are just two questions I have been asking of creationists / literal-bible theists ever since I was a little girl. I have never heard an answer that made sense. So, we have some theists and bible scholars here at AF, I thought that I would ask.
Creationists claim that the world is 6000 years old.
actually no. YEC/ Young Earth Creationists believe this. I for one believe that it has only been 5000/6000 years from the fall of man/exile from the garden.
Quote:
Science says otherwise. I have had creationists tell me that all of the dating practices are faulty creations of Satan. So, whatever, for this question, let's go with 6000.
I too believe the dating system is in error otherwise the evolutionary dates would not have changed so much over time. I don't think this is a work of Sagan but just good olde fashion human arrogance. Arrogance enough to proclaim a date when we obviously do not have all the facts/know the whole truth. But like you don't care to argue these points so I generally go with what ever time period you guys want to work with as it really does not matter from a biblical perspective. (As the bible never actually gives a time line)
Quote:
IF you believe that Salvation came through Jesus Christ - - and as many believe, the true followers of Yahweh who predated him were retroactively "saved" - - then what of all the other people? What of the other nations who worshiped other gods: China, Egypt, India, Greece, Babylon, the Mayans . . . Stonehenge was started about 3000 bce, and I don't believe Ben Carson when he says the Noah built it as a dog park after the flood.
What of them?
Do you wrongly assume they all go to hell?
Acts 17 tells us that God places his law on all of our heart and even (before Christ) he allowed those with out the law (non Jews) to worship what ever gods in an effort to honor the laws he put in our hearts. But now demands we all come to repentance under Christ.
The Jews were elected to simple be the ones who carried the law and provide the world with a savior.
Quote: Why would the creator of billions upon billions of galaxies decide to show up and focus on one tiny little Semitic tribe who lived in an area 20,770 km / 12,906 square miles (1/4 of the size of England) - who were not as advanced as many other nations of their time? If this creator truly wants to "save" everyone, why this one tiny tribe, and no contact with any other nations? What of the many, many people who had no knowledge of Yahweh?
We are save for eternal life. What do you think we will be doing for eternity? One long boring church service? As you pointed out their are infinite galaxies with stars and planets we can not count.
I would think all of the rest of creation will be what we are tasked to develop and maintain in some way or fashion
Quote:
Do they automatically fry? (Then God is truly a monster.) Are they given a "pass"? (Then why was the sacrifice of Jesus needed at all?)
Do you know the parable of the talents?
In short God judges us based on what we have been given, the more we are given the more we are responsible to. If we prove to be responsible to what we have then greater our reward. The ultimate goal is not just heaven, but reward in heaven and a better position/job.
Christ died to forgive sins and be in a position judge the world/decide who is and is not Christian. This is not a title we can award ourselves with any meaning or accuracy. Christ alone decides who is and is not saved. Not our doctrines nor works, lest any man should boast. Our salvation is a gift that none deserve. Many in the church will be shocked when/If they get to heaven. Their will be a lot more in heaven than they would have ever imagined.
Our knowledge of Christ/Christianity is one more talent/thing we are responsible for which gives us opportunity for greater responsibility or reward.
If we know of Christ we are responsible to respond to Christ. If not then it is up to Christ to decide who is and is not saved
November 15, 2015 at 12:29 pm (This post was last modified: November 15, 2015 at 12:29 pm by robvalue.)
(November 15, 2015 at 5:30 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:
(November 15, 2015 at 3:02 am)robvalue Wrote: If I didn't exist and I had to somehow convince people that I did, I'd pick the most irrational and superstitious group of people available.
It seems like non-God chose well.
Based on the biblical stories they couldn't go more than five minutes without worshiping something.
Haha, yeah. They were a group of sycophants. Suck up to the most impressive looking thing and beg for good treatment.
It's a mindset that sadly hasn't died out.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(November 13, 2015 at 3:47 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: No, I'm not racist. The following are just two questions I have been asking of creationists / literal-bible theists ever since I was a little girl. I have never heard an answer that made sense. So, we have some theists and bible scholars here at AF, I thought that I would ask.
Creationists claim that the world is 6000 years old.
actually no. YEC/ Young Earth Creationists believe this. I for one believe that it has only been 5000/6000 years from the fall of man/exile from the garden.
Quote:
Science says otherwise. I have had creationists tell me that all of the dating practices are faulty creations of Satan. So, whatever, for this question, let's go with 6000.
I too believe the dating system is in error otherwise the evolutionary dates would not have changed so much over time. I don't think this is a work of Sagan but just good olde fashion human arrogance. Arrogance enough to proclaim a date when we obviously do not have all the facts/know the whole truth. But like you don't care to argue these points so I generally go with what ever time period you guys want to work with as it really does not matter from a biblical perspective. (As the bible never actually gives a time line)
Quote:
IF you believe that Salvation came through Jesus Christ - - and as many believe, the true followers of Yahweh who predated him were retroactively "saved" - - then what of all the other people? What of the other nations who worshiped other gods: China, Egypt, India, Greece, Babylon, the Mayans . . . Stonehenge was started about 3000 bce, and I don't believe Ben Carson when he says the Noah built it as a dog park after the flood.
What of them?
Do you wrongly assume they all go to hell?
Acts 17 tells us that God places his law on all of our heart and even (before Christ) he allowed those with out the law (non Jews) to worship what ever gods in an effort to honor the laws he put in our hearts. But now demands we all come to repentance under Christ.
The Jews were elected to simple be the ones who carried the law and provide the world with a savior.
Quote: Why would the creator of billions upon billions of galaxies decide to show up and focus on one tiny little Semitic tribe who lived in an area 20,770 km / 12,906 square miles (1/4 of the size of England) - who were not as advanced as many other nations of their time? If this creator truly wants to "save" everyone, why this one tiny tribe, and no contact with any other nations? What of the many, many people who had no knowledge of Yahweh?
We are save for eternal life. What do you think we will be doing for eternity? One long boring church service? As you pointed out their are infinite galaxies with stars and planets we can not count.
I would think all of the rest of creation will be what we are tasked to develop and maintain in some way or fashion
Quote:
Do they automatically fry? (Then God is truly a monster.) Are they given a "pass"? (Then why was the sacrifice of Jesus needed at all?)
Do you know the parable of the talents?
In short God judges us based on what we have been given, the more we are given the more we are responsible to. If we prove to be responsible to what we have then greater our reward. The ultimate goal is not just heaven, but reward in heaven and a better position/job.
Christ died to forgive sins and be in a position judge the world/decide who is and is not Christian. This is not a title we can award ourselves with any meaning or accuracy. Christ alone decides who is and is not saved.
Not our doctrines nor works, lest any man should boast. Our salvation is a gift that none deserve. Many in the church will be shocked when/If they get to heaven. Their will be a lot more in heaven than they would have ever imagined.
Our knowledge of Christ/Christianity is one more talent/thing we are responsible for which gives us opportunity for greater responsibility or reward.
If we know of Christ we are responsible to respond to Christ. If not then it is up to Christ to decide who is and is not saved
So, in your first statement (that I bolded red) you say that before Christ, people could worship any god they wanted. But now it's Christ and ONLY Christ. Well, darn it, those lucky bastards who lived in China 2,000 years ago!! They got a pass.
But now Christ gets to give a thumbs up or thumbs down on everybody, according to the second red statement. Well, I really think all atheists should get a pass. He hasn't given us proof of his existence. And I could see how the Muslims that are now begging the world to see them as peaceful and intelligent could get a pass, but folks like the Westboro Baptist Church will not. Yeah, if I believed in an afterlife, I would go with that. I don't think many sheeple pastors would agree with me though.
AND, in today's world, the majority of the planet knows what xtians believe. And out of more than 8 billion people on this planet, at least 6 billion reject xtianity - either because they were raised into a different religion, because they were raised with no religion, so it makes no sense to them, or because they have deconverted. And rejection of Christ sends them to hell, doesn't it? Hell is going to be a crowded place.
Nope, this doesn't answer the question at all. For millennia, people can worship any way they want, and if they are good, gawd gives 'em a pass. Then Jesus comes along, gets himself crucified for insurrection, and suddenly the whole world is in debt to him for something that they didn't need and didn't want. Suddenly the whole world has to kowtow to a preacher from a little backwater tribe that most of the planet didn't know existed. But if they don't bow down and worship this monster, he's going to fry them for eternity. And for 2000 years all the "proof" we have is fairy tales in an offensive and contradictory book, and the ravings of bible thumping, frothing at the mouth, baby raping witch doctors.
I'm going with science, and evidence, and logic. I'll leave the frothing at the mouth to you.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
