(December 5, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(December 5, 2015 at 7:16 pm)Spooky Wrote: To fire a lead projectile at high speed.

To what end?

To put a hole in whatever it hits.

(December 5, 2015 at 7:20 pm)Mermaid Wrote: 1. I think we are more afraid of each other than we need to be. 2. I also think that the sheer biomass of guns present in this country cause people to die who would not otherwise die if there were not so many guns around. 3. I get what you are saying about advantage, but I think the current trend of having a handgun to protect ourselves is nothing less than crazy. We are not the police and we do not live in a war zone.

4. If you are in a mass shooting situation, are you going to be able to identify the gunman? Are you sure? Will it be the guy with body armor and the bandoliers across his chest? Or will you see a guy just like you with a gun? 5. I just don't buy the personal protection thing in that situation.

1. Agreed.

2. I won't argue there.  Accidents and violence happen.  I make the case that many of them would simply die for other reasons were guns not present.  A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.

3. Not a fan of the police.  Bunch of Alpha males with dick envy.

4. Unlikely.  But it's really subjective.  Are we talking crowd?  Or office building?  My training said to find cover first, then return fire if applicable. 

5. Eh, I'm on the fence there.  My mother in law wants a pistol for "Protection".  And wants me to "Train" her.  I've said no.  I rarely carry my pistol honestly.  I'm a fan of the theory of the "Tueller Drill".

Osaka School Massacre

Quote:At 10:15 that morning, 37-year-old former janitor Mamoru Takuma entered the school armed with a kitchen knife and began stabbing numerous school children and teachers. He killed eight children, mostly between the ages of seven and eight, and seriously wounded thirteen other children and two teachers.[2]

My point is that humans are quite good at killing each other.  I simply don't believe guns make enough of a difference to ban them completely.

(December 5, 2015 at 7:29 pm)Spooky Wrote: 3. Not a fan of the police.  Bunch of Alpha males with dick envy.

You're confusing the police with police officers. Personally - I may not be a fan of health inspectors, who walk around my workplace with clip-boards, hair-nets and a sense of bureaucratic importance, checking for specs of dust and sticking thermometers in things. But I'm quite happy, that there is an institution, who's job it is to make sure, that I don't eat under-cooked rat feces, when I go out for dinner.

(December 5, 2015 at 8:23 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(December 5, 2015 at 7:29 pm)Spooky Wrote: 3. Not a fan of the police.  Bunch of Alpha males with dick envy.

You're confusing the police with police officers. Personally - I may not be a fan of health inspectors, who walk around my workplace with clip-boards, hair-nets and a sense of bureaucratic importance, checking for specs of dust and sticking thermometers in things. But I'm quite happy, that there is an institution, who's job it is to make sure, that I don't eat under-cooked rat feces, when I go out for dinner.

Eh to each their own I suppose.  Their uniform has become a sick joke.

Health inspectors are rarely charged with murder.

(December 5, 2015 at 7:14 pm)Spooky Wrote:

(December 5, 2015 at 7:07 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: 1. I don't think the American government is up to enforcing the kind of regulation that would allow to keep guns and keep people safe at the same time.
You could make the case that its not a gun issue, its a mental health issue. Alright, fine. Yes. However guns make it alot easier to kill people and we're shit at handling mental health issues. Theres only so much you can do and even if we had a handle on it getting rid of guns would still help alleviate the ease with which extreme violence is perpetrated. 2. Have you ever tried to stab someone to death? Its actually alot harder than you would imagine. There have been people who have been stabbed like 20 times in the back and torso and still survived. Even if you are an expert and know how to access all the vital areas with ease its still nowhere near as efficient as a firearm.
3. Like Jim Jerfferies says theres only one legitimate reason to be pro-gun; "Fuck off, I like guns. "
Its not going to win any debates but its the best you've got.

1. Not sure what to say, I'm not a 100% believer in the US Government either.  "Keeping people safe" is a little abstract though.  There's plenty of things that will kill you.  Again, I haven't any statistics for you, but I doubt guns top the list.

2. Yes I have.

3. I sincerely hope that isn't the best the pro-gun population has.  Telling somebody to fuck off is no way to have a conversation.

I've owned many guns, and shot many thousands of rounds without issue.  I may be biased due to experience and training, but cars (and the people who drive them) scare me more than guns.

Come on, lets not get pedantic. We both know what I mean by keeping safe; keeping bullets from entering peoples living bodies and converting them to dead bodies. Yes you can stab someone or use all kinds of tools but most violent crime is opportunistic. The less convenient the opportunity that presents itself is the less likely it is that it will be taken advantage of. Guns are very convenient and lethal weapons. 

Anecdotal evidence. Statistics back up the fact that guns cause more violence than they resolve and that the most likely victim to be on the receiving end of a bullet of a gun is fired at a living person is the owner of that gun. Its a major contributor to suicide thanks to the convenience it offers. Like violent crime suicide appears to be opportunistic as demonstrated by the fact that when we made it impossible to gas yourself using an oven the rates of suicide fell and never went back up. A large percentage of people when not presented with a convenient opportunity pursued it no further.

 This isn't even taking into account premeditated violence. Guns make that *really* easy. Don't get me wrong; guns are awesome. A marvel of physics and mechanics, really. Lets not get confused though. They kill people. At an astonishing rate. You make guns illegal the murder rate falls. We know this. Its not surprising, it makes perfect sense. The reasons to keep guns around have diminished greatly seen as they would be useless against a tyrannical government now due to the advent of drones and fighter jets. Thats not an explanation we can use now.

The remaining pro-gun reasons that counts now are as follows;
"I like guns"
"I really like shooting targets."
"In the extremely unlikely event someone breaks in to kill me with a gun I want to kill them with my gun first."
"I want to feel safe."
"Its part of our culture."

(December 5, 2015 at 8:39 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Come on, lets not get pedantic. We both know what I mean by keeping safe; keeping bullets from entering peoples living bodies and converting them to dead bodies. Yes you can stab someone or use all kinds of tools but most violent crime is opportunistic. The less convenient the opportunity that presents itself is the less likely it is that it will be taken advantage of. Guns are very convenient and lethal weapons. 

I wont argue that guns are convenient, however I don't buy for a moment that they're any more lethal than knives or large machinery. I've lost count of the number of "Victim was shot 5 times and is in stable condition" stories I've read. Also wont argue opportunistic violence. However you'd simply be trading random shootings for random stabbings.

(December 5, 2015 at 8:39 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Anecdotal evidence. Statistics back up the fact that guns cause more violence than they resolve and that the most likely victim to be on the receiving end of a bullet of a gun is fired at a living person is the owner of that gun. Its a major contributor to suicide thanks to the convenience it offers. Like violent crime suicide appears to be opportunistic as demonstrated by the fact that when we made it impossible to gas yourself using an oven the rates of suicide fell and never went back up. A large percentage of people when not presented with a convenient opportunity pursued it no further.

Define a large percentage? 1 in 4? At the treatment facility I spent a few years at I cut a kid down in the showers. He tried to hang himself with the string off his sweat pants. If somebody is mentally ill and wants to kill themselves, guns are irrelevant.

(December 5, 2015 at 8:39 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote:  This isn't even taking into account premeditated violence. Guns make that *really* easy. Don't get me wrong; guns are awesome. A marvel of physics and mechanics, really. Lets not get confused though. They kill people. At an astonishing rate. You make guns illegal the murder rate falls. We know this. Its not surprising, it makes perfect sense. The reasons to keep guns around have diminished greatly seen as they would be useless against a tyrannical government now due to the advent of drones and fighter jets. Thats not an explanation we can use now.

Again, yes, guns make things easier, but will not prevent it. Quite honestly guns are messy and leave a lot of evidence. Yes, guns kill people. But there's somebody behind the gun. I don't have time to list all the other things that kill people, that we don't even consider banning. As I stated previously, humans are more fragile than we're willing to admit.

If I plan to kill somebody, not having a gun isn't going to be much of a problem. Banning guns would cause the murder rate to dip slightly. It wouldn't as you say "Fall".

The "Tyrannical Government" argument is tired, and quite frankly a bunch of bullshit probably made up by the NRA and white supremacists.

(December 5, 2015 at 8:39 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: The remaining pro-gun reasons that counts now are as follows;
"I like guns"
"I really like shooting targets."
"In the extremely unlikely event someone breaks in to kill me with a gun I want to kill them with my gun first."
"I want to feel safe."
"Its part of our culture."

Yep, I like guns.

Target shooting is indeed fun.

If you break into my house you are fairly screwed.

I like camping in places that have bears. I've thankfully never had to shoot one.

I'm a 28 year old male that doesn't worry much about rape/mugging/etc. My wife is well trained with her 9mm and doesn't worry much either. Safety is an illusion that doesn't really exist.

Fuck the american culture. I hate rednecks.

I enjoy hunting.

All the things that guns do, can be done with some other method, guns aren't the problem.

Quote:An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein

What does this quote mean to me? If you make a threat, I have no intention of waiting to see how serious you are. And full disclosure, I'm not going to shoot you.

Spooks, you are a cool critical thinker like many here.
You like guns, so what! It's America.

Taking guns away won't replace them with something else.
Just ask Au, UK, NZ, Japan, etc.

Smart guys should admit they like and want guns and not try to justify them using logic and reason.

I'll leave it at that.

(December 5, 2015 at 9:10 pm)ignoramus Wrote: Spooks, you are a cool critical thinker like many here.
You like guns, so what! It's America.

Taking guns away won't replace them with something else.
Just ask Au, UK, NZ, Japan, etc.

Smart guys should admit they like and want guns and not try to justify them using logic and reason.

I'll leave it at that.

I see guns as a scapegoat for humanity's inability to admit we've been offing each other for a very long time.  And as tragic as shootings are, it won't stop "Mass killings".  Maybe I'm biased, I know enough about how to kill other people that I don't see guns as really being that high on the list.

(December 5, 2015 at 8:31 pm)Spooky Wrote: Eh to each their own I suppose.  Their uniform has become a sick joke.

Health inspectors are rarely charged with murder.

Police officers are also rarely charged with murder - especially in UK, where most of them don't even carry guns. There are just a lot more of them, than there are health inspectors and they have more opportunities for involvement in criminal activity, or committing a tragic mistake. 

You're not really arguing for having no police at all, are you?
Police are also rarely charged with war-crimes, but that's hardly an argument, that we shouldn't have soldiers - who sometimes do commit war-crimes - to defend our countries. Policemen are not often charged with medical malpractice - that doesn't mean we shouldn't have doctors. And while we're at it - many proponents of alternative medicine hate doctors, because they are often assholes, especially when they're busy, overworked and dealing with dumb questions. Consequently - those people go to homeopaths and other quacks, who's ONLY job is to be nice to people, and they don't receive actual medical help.

Police is indispensable in modern society - for better, or worse we're stuck with them. Personally - I've never had a run-in with the police in my entire life, despite my life-style choices often putting me at odds with the law. I have no doubt many officers are assholes, but then - that's true of any profession. And people who deal with the worst elements of our society on daily basis are bound to be assholes. Of course - in US the fact that anyone they approach might have a gun on them probably doesn't help making them less insecure and trigger-happy...